Cross-gender PCs

[Aus_Snow]

Well personality type is easy, just dont act like yourself the other stuff is represented through game mechanics,

So then, what are the defining differences when it comes to playing the opposite gender? 'Just don't act like yourself. . .' ? Or no, is it something else?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

For me, cringeworthy and flat-out wrong portrayals of women are a hallmark of fantasy fiction, but apparently, we disagree on the matter.

If we disagree, it's only slightly. I should have said "good fantasy fiction." Actually, "good speculative fiction" is even better, because I don't read very much fantasy. (Interestingly, all of the fantasy authors I actually make an effort to follow are women.)

All adventure stories deactivate the "needs believability" center of my brain.

Sure, but aren't there stages of suspension of disbelief for you? For me, for example, I can't stand wuxia in my fantasy. Conan -- oops, I mean Red Sonja -- ripping through an army pretty much single-handedly? Sure, no problem. Red Sonja walking on the leaves of trees? No thanks.

The 6'5, 300 pound dude -- that's me, BTW -- playing a female halfling goes beyond my levels of suspension of disbelief. I simply cannot immerse myself in that situation, and frankly, I think gamers who can -- either as the character or playing across from the character -- are exceptionally rare. As I said, I have, in 24 years, never seen one.

Which leaves other people's role-playing options limited to what *you* feel is believable female behavior.

But why does the observer set the standard? If it makes a difference to the player's experience, isn't that good enough?

I, and the other players in my group, also limit options based on morality, species, squeamishness, in-character cooperation, and any number of other things. It's a cooperative game, and my group considers the fun of everybody else in addition to their own. (Although, as I said, with gender it's not been an issue.) In other words ... no, the fun of the single player isn't enough.

None of them acted effeminate or pranced around in dresses fluttering their hands, but they all had girl-parts, and that's the *only* qualifier they had to satisfy to 'count' as women.

I'm missing your point, unless you're implying that I believe playing a woman involves that sort of behavior. And if you believe that, well, that says more about your stereotypes of women than it does about my expectations at the game table, since I certainly never said or implied anything of the sort.

I find that the majority of our games are gender neutral 95% of the time.

As do I. And, given that, not playing cross-gender helps with immersion. When a PC refers to my character as "he," because it's understandably difficult to associate my hulking presence with femininity, nobody has to stop the RP to remind the player than I'm actually a "she." If anybody out there who plays cross-gender claims this doesn't happen on a regular basis ... well, let's just say I'm skeptical.

It is only the rare cases where the DM pulls out a situation where there might be a romantic/crush incident with a NPC. As long as those 5% incidents are done well the other 95% of the time it doesn't matter what gender a character is.

Right. So why play cross-gender? (Especially when playing cross-gender, IME, inevitably means that 5% of incidents end up being played badly.)

As a final word, please note that when I don't respond further, I'm not snubbing anyone. I feel as if I -- and a few others -- have tapped into a pretty big well of defensiveness, and I'm really not interested in engaging it, even in consideration of the productive discussion I think I could have with other posters. So I'm out.

 

[SACERD]

it is something else.
It may be intangible but it is there.
For example, because I have never met an elf their general behavior is elaborated on in various games/setting books, including their interactions with one another as well as their interactions with members of different races. I could therefore surmise how one would (in theory) play a typical elf and could objectively make a determination on how accurately one did so.
Same thing with gender. The difference lays in the fact that the writers of most rpgs feel it unnecessary to elaborate on the differences in genders among the human races. I would assume it is because the folks playing the game are human.

 

[Aus_Snow]

The 6'5, 300 pound dude -- that's me, BTW -- playing a female halfling goes beyond my levels of suspension of disbelief. I simply cannot immerse myself in that situation, and frankly, I think gamers who can -- either as the character or playing across from the character -- are exceptionally rare. As I said, I have, in 24 years, never seen one.

With that one alteration (sorcery, or surgery, perhaps ), how does the paragraph parse, in terms of truth value relative to the original, on a scale of 0 to 10, 0 representing 'not true at all anymore' and 10, 'absolutely just as true'. . .?

Oh wait, I actually missed the bowing out bit there. . . *sigh*. Oh well, as you wish.

Funny that you mention defensiveness, however.

 

[CharlesRyan]

Hi, Jeff, sorry to hear you're stepping out of this conversation. I was finding it pretty interesting. I'll post my response to you anyway, in case you change your mind.

I, and the other players in my group, also limit options based on morality, species, squeamishness, in-character cooperation, and any number of other things. It's a cooperative game, and my group considers the fun of everybody else in addition to their own. (Although, as I said, with gender it's not been an issue.) In other words ... no, the fun of the single player isn't enough.

So that implies that if someone in your group crosses gender, it makes the game less fun for the others--and based on your previous comments, that's simply because the gender-crossing player doesn't do a good enough job with the roleplaying.

I totally agree about putting limits on character types that are disruptive to everyone else's experience, but are you really saying that playing across gender consistently (or even frequently, within a gaming group that seems willing to work together for the group experience) causes this level of disruption?

 

[avin]

What's the point? As a DM i'm always roleplaying woman NPCs... have played one female char and other guys have been playing female with no problems at all.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I think I would sriously walk out on a game where the DM decided that I could not play any female PCs...

I actually have this idea for an infernal pact warlock half elf, who had to give up her first born as part of the pact and after that had a chance of heart about getting all this power and is now trying to get out of the pact and get her son back. Now you could say that this could work just as well with a male character, but it just doesn´t feel the same. In fact most of my characters have a very clear image to me that is usually decidely either male or female and it would just not feel right to not choose that gender...

That being said most of the time the gender of the characters we play doesn´t really influence the games directly, but sometimes it does and for those times, a player should be free to choose whatever gender (s)he wants...

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Jeff, I am sorry to hear you are stepping out as well. I wasn't trying to be defensive, just trying to engage in conversation. I want to reply to a couple of points as well even if you don't come back.

Originally Posted by Brown Jenkin View Post
I find that the majority of our games are gender neutral 95% of the time.

As do I. And, given that, not playing cross-gender helps with immersion. When a PC refers to my character as "he," because it's understandably difficult to associate my hulking presence with femininity, nobody has to stop the RP to remind the player than I'm actually a "she." If anybody out there who plays cross-gender claims this doesn't happen on a regular basis ... well, let's just say I'm skeptical.

I am sorry to hear that your group has problems differentiating and remembering aspects of each others characters. I guess I am lucky in my group because that has never been a problem. In each of our campaigns there has regularly been one or two cross gender characters. No one to my knowledge has ever referred to the characters by the wrong pronoun.

Our group consists of a variety of players from beer and pretzel to heavy roleplayers. For the Beer and pretzel types they don't play cross gender because for them if it doesn't have a modifier it doesn't matter to them and it is one less thing they have to worry about roleplaying. For the heavy roleplayers, they choose to go cross gender at times because it either fits their character better or they want to challenge themselves with something different. Yet no-one ever seems to forget who is a elf or dwarf or male or female, even if they are played fully in character or not.

You may be skeptical but I am laying out my data point nonetheless. You can choose to believe it or not.

Originally Posted by Brown Jenkin View Post
It is only the rare cases where the DM pulls out a situation where there might be a romantic/crush incident with a NPC. As long as those 5% incidents are done well the other 95% of the time it doesn't matter what gender a character is.

Right. So why play cross-gender? (Especially when playing cross-gender, IME, inevitably means that 5% of incidents end up being played badly.)

I disagree with your counter argument that that the 5% of incidents inevitably end up being played badly. First off we agree that 95% of time it doesn't matter what gender a character is. So then we can focus on that last 5% as to what could causes disbelief in roleplaying ability cross gender. As has been pointed out both males and females in real life run across a full spectrum of personality types. Some are slutty, some are asexual, some are heterosexual, some are homosexual, some are masculine, some are feminine, some are dominant, some are submissive, some are romantic, some are in it just for the sex and many fall between all these extremes. In real life I have run into all these personality types in both males and females. There is no proper way to play a male or female. The important thing is that a personality type be chosen and then played consistently.

I guess I am still confused by what it means to play badly. As I don't see gender fitting into a neat little package that has to be a certain way, I don't see how playing a female as a masculine homosexual slut (A worst case scenario in game so some folks, but a female personality type that I have met in real life) is necessarily wrong as long as it fits the character background and is played consistently and not played to intentionally cause disruption to the game. I don't see this as worse than having to deal with a lawful stupid Paladin or a magic hating Barbarian, both of which would be acceptable in your games.

If in your experience, with your group and your players, it has never been pulled off then there is nothing I can do but say that in my experience, with my group and my players, that it has been pulled off to my personal satisfaction.

 

[Dausuul]

I continue to be bewildered by the claim that most gamers can't "accurately" portray characters of the opposite sex... mostly because no one has yet explained what would constitute an accurate portrayal.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Now I miss one of my favorite characters, a transgendered elf beguiler who had six different disguises, three women and three men. It was always fun to start a session off with a d6 roll, to see who I would be (so to speak). I've gone and made myself sad.

Now THAT is some frikken' ROLE-play! YEAH!

Whether or not you have the chops to pull that off, I would have felt privileged just to witness that in action. That is an awesome concept.

Its almost always some horrible exaggeration, either way to slutty and oversexed or dramatically feminist to the point where feminists are saying "Please...just chill".

And when someone plays a horrible exaggeration of their own sex, its OK?

So why play cross-gender?

For the same reasons you're playing a Lizard Man or an alien from Krypton- because it fits the PC concept.