Forked Thread: Did 4e go far enough or to far?

[thedungeondelver]

Not that anyone cares, but I myself think they went too far. Too far to the point that I don't even recognize the game as D&D. Not in the sense of "I DO NOT RECOGNIZE YOU OR YOUR AUTHORITY TO CALL YOURSELF..." etc., but in the sense that I look at it and the terminology, play systems, style of play that is encouraged, how dungeons are "supposed" to be run now, etc. are utterly incomprehensible to me. It might as well be 3rd edition DRAGONQUEST or the like.

It is completely around the bend for me. I'll give it this much - it made me rethink my stance that "3e" wasn't D&D.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I don't think you should base a game on "how it reads" but more on "how it plays".

Many here think that 4E reads like WoW but as someone that plays WoW, I can assure you the closest analogue isn't WoW but a japanese tactical RPG like La Pucelle Tactics.

However, as one of the maybe ten people on these forums who know what La Pucelle Tactics is, WoW possibly works better due to name recognition

 

[Jhaelen]

They've alienated existing users. Too late in that regard. Their target demographic is new players in the 12 - 18 range.

That's patently untrue.
The majority of ENWorlds users is in the 30+ range, myself included.

The changes in 4E make the game easier to play and DM - especially if you don't have a lot of spare time. This is a big benefit for players with job and family.

 

[Allister]

However, as one of the maybe ten people on these forums who know what La Pucelle Tactics is, WoW possibly works better due to name recognition

But would you say that games like Disgaea and La Pucelle Tactics are even slightly similar in play to WoW?

I sure as heck wouldn't.

A FPS shooter like Halo plays closer to WoW than any of the japanese tactical RPGs IMO

 

[justanobody]

Actually someone stated that the target demographic was the younger players of the age range listed there Jhaelen.

 

[Fifth Element]

Actually someone stated that the target demographic was the younger players of the age range listed there Jhaelen.

By "someone" you mean who exactly? And a link would be nice.

 

[Tetsubo]

That's patently untrue.
The majority of ENWorlds users is in the 30+ range, myself included.

The changes in 4E make the game easier to play and DM - especially if you don't have a lot of spare time. This is a big benefit for players with job and family.

I don't think you could call an ENWorld user a "new" player. We are the established players. 4E is aimed at new players.

 

[Tetsubo]

So your argument is that WotC deliberately turned their backs on their established customer base in order to chase a new demographic that they had few, if no, actual inroads in. And their motivation was greed... do you see why I don't think this scans?

I'll say it again: 4e would probably look pretty different if profit was the only thing on the designer's minds (it would look more like 3e, it would be safer). I think it's more reasonable to conclude that the design choices made --whether you like them or not-- were an honest attempt to address perceived system flaws and improve the game.


That's patently untrue. You can tell when a used car salesman is successful (someone drives away with a car).


Without profit, there would be a lot less of the hobby to be interested in.

If the idea behind 4E was to 'fix' perceived flaws with 3.5, they failed. Spectacularly. Especially seeing that 3.5 needed a few tweaks, not a complete rebuild. Talk about throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I was commenting on the socially perceived view of used car salesmen.
Marketers get paid when they sell people ideas. Those ideas don't have to be good, so long as they sell.

Profit at the expense of existing players is not a model I can support. Loyal customers should be retained, not disenfranchised.

 

[Phaezen]

I don't think you could call an ENWorld user a "new" player. We are the established players. 4E is aimed at new players.

That may be, but I have 22 years (and 4 days) of dming experience and 4e hits the spot for me. Take that as you will.

Phaezen

 

[Tetsubo]

You're painting a wide variety of people with a very broad brush. It's like when people use "suits" in a derogatory way. You (and I) have no idea how WotC operates, and have no insight into the 4E design process, or rather what the driving force was behind it.

Indeed, the guy in charge of marketing 4E as I understand it (The Rouse) posts here often. I daresay he has quite a bit of a clue.

Your personal experiences with marketers has been different than mine.