Balance in 4th: All Powers for All Classes All the Time?

[takasi]

This is meant as a general thread for anyone who wants to bring up imbalance issues with 4th edition, but I also have a specific issue to bring up.

I'm thinking of running a homebrew campaign to test out some new races, classes, feats, powers etc. I really enjoy writing for 4th edition, as powers make it incredibly easy to inject the flavor of your setting and campaign into the rules.

I would like my players to pick their classes and get class features, but for powers they can choose any powers they want from any class.

Also...

They do not need to select their powers until they use them. They can swap powers at any time, but they are still limited to the encounter/daily/utility chart in the PHB for usage.

Can you think of any broken combinations with this style of play that would ruin gameplay?

I think this gives gameplay an incredible amount of depth and adds much more strategy to players who miss complicated spellcasting in older editions. It also allows you to build a world where anyone can cast a spell, pray to their god and execute awesome maneuvers in combat.

 

[darjr]

I don't understand, me thinks. This would give them every encounter power, not just two. If they can swap them out at any time, they have them all.

Edit: sorry I mean at will.

 

[malraux]

I would imagine this would create a lot of book flipping as everyone looks for the right power at that moment.

 

[Plane Sailing]

This definitely belongs in 4e house rules, not in general RPG discussion, so I'll move it over there.

Cheers

 

[Cadfan]

There are a few ways this could break the game, but you're not going to be able to predict most of them until your players get their hands on the rules.

For now, what I see is that, for many characters, there are powers that give buffs that last for the whole combat. Usually there's something that stops these powers from stacking. Often that something is class specific. Letting players choose from multiple classes could bypass this.

For example, you could obtain a stance from the Fighter class, a rage from the Barbarian class, and a spell buff from the Cleric or Wizard. Then you could blow all of them on one fight, and then whine about how you need to rest after the fight is over to recover your combo.

 

[takasi]

I don't understand, me thinks. This would give them every encounter power, not just two. If they can swap them out at any time, they have them all.

At first level they would still only have two encounter powers that they can activate, but they can choose any one they want. It is not based on their class, or what they wrote down as their one and only power list for their character. As they go up in level this number increases as per the PHB.

I would imagine this would create a lot of book flipping as everyone looks for the right power at that moment.

Right. It would definately slow down the game a bit, add more strategy and feel more like a high level wizard in past editions trying to figure out what scrolls and spells to use at any given moment.

Usually there's something that stops these powers from stacking. Often that something is class specific.

Exactly. Does anyone have any specific examples they would consider broken?

 

[Darkwolf71]

Mmm, bad idea. IMO.

4e is generic enough from WotCs built in 'balancing', this compounds the problem. And as has been mentioned, that would be a lot of page flipping mid-game.

 

[77IM]

I would like my players to pick their classes and get class features, but for powers they can choose any powers they want from any class.

That seems fine. Mike Mearls even said you could do it. I don't have a reference, but it was in a podcast... he said it would erode the niche protection offered by classes but that powers were roughly balanced across roles, because generally class features provide the role rather than the powers. Certain classes seem to break this rule (like barbarian and wizard) by having extremely role-oriented powers but even still I think they are balanced "close enough" that all the PCs should wind up equally cool.

They do not need to select their powers until they use them. They can swap powers at any time, but they are still limited to the encounter/daily/utility chart in the PHB for usage.

Can you think of any broken combinations with this style of play that would ruin gameplay?

I don't like this idea at all (because it seems like it would be really difficult, and I am strongly biased towards ease of play). Two things immediately jump to mind:

1. Utility powers have different usage limits. If I use an Encounter Utility 2 in one fight, then a Daily Utility 2 in the next fight, what happens in the third fight? Can I keep using Encounter Utilities but not Daily Utilities? Or did I use up my level 2 Utility for the day? Should the use of an Encounter Utility in the first fight prevent me from upgrading to a Daily? Now add At-Will Utilities into the mix and it gets even hairier.

2. I game with people who are really smart and have been role-playing for years in many different systems and they still have trouble keeping track of the handful of powers written on their character sheets. The group is now level 5-6 and they still forget to use their racial powers and magic item powers, have trouble remembering which of their attacks are against which defense and how much [W] they do, and generally spend a lot of time smacking their heads going "d'oh! I should have used power X last round!"

It's not that my players are dumb -- just that the power system is already complex, especially in the context of a raging combat. Allowing people access to all the powers at once would be a non-starter: the important tactical decisions of which power to use and when becomes even more important, but also more difficult and time-consuming. Players like making decisions but having to make too many difficult decisions isn't fun for most people. Consider how many powers there are that are immediate interrupts; whenever anyone does anything, every player needs to decide whether to use one of those powers.

In previous editions, players didn't get to pick all their powers right in the middle of combat. It was done at spell-preparation time, which reduced the in-combat selection space to at most a few dozen spells, which the player has familiarized themselves with ahead of time. You might seek out options like that. For example, maybe arcane and divine casters can swap their powers during an extended rest; maybe martial characters can swap powers during combat, but only once per encounter. Even still, I anticipate combats taking longer and not being any more interesting.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, just that it seems like it would make the game really difficult. You know your group far better than I so if you think they are into this sort of thing then go for it and let us know how it works out. If you can figure out a way to keep the page-flipping and decision-paralysis to a minimum then this could be a really interesting rules variant.

-- 77IM

 

[takasi]

4e is generic enough from WotCs built in 'balancing', this compounds the problem.

Many believe 4th edition is very close specific, and not generic enough. It certainly doesn't have as many build options as 3.5 did, even when supplements are not taken into a consideration.

If you can figure out a way to keep the page-flipping and decision-paralysis to a minimum then this could be a really interesting rules variant.

I was talking with a friend on the phone, and he suggested two options I liked.

The first thing that would be helpful is a deck of cards to choose powers from instead of flipping through a book. You thumb through the cards like you would if you were playing Magic.

The second option is to limit the powers to each role (defenders can only choose from defender powers, controllers from controllers, etc), to each power source (arcane to arcane, divine to divine, etc), both source and role (arcane strikers to arcane strikers), source, role and one selected primary attribute (martial striker powers that use dexterity), or finally just within one class (all fighter powers).

 

[darjr]

I misstyped.

I meant at-will powers, sorry. If I can change them at will, and pick any power, then I've got them all.

I see in your post you don't list at-will when you talk about limits though, hence my confusion.