Forked Thread: PC concept limitations in 4e

[ExploderWizard]

No. Psychic damage means that when your opponent struggles against your attempt to subvert his mind it weakens his resolve and lowers his endurance to continue to fight. That is represented in the abstract hit point system.

Yes, and if I eat my peas separately or mix them up in my mashed potatoes it makes no difference because they are headed to the same place.

Everything to the hit points reminds me of The Robobattle Warrobot Subtable from an old TFTFB adventure :

Robobattle Warrobot Subtable:

1) Arm Hit: Robobattle Warrobot blows up real good.

2) Leg Hit: Robobattle Warrobot blows up real good.

3-5) Torso Hit: Robobattle Warrobot blows up real good.

6) Head Hit: Robobattle Warrobot blows up real good.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Leaving aside major reskinning (fighter reskinned as monk, etc) I guess there are four possible answers that cover most of the "I can't do X in 4e" comments.

1. Yes, you can. Read better. (This hasn't come up here, but it does sometimes.)
2. Yes, you can, but you may have to give up defining your concept in terms of mechanics and instead define it in terms of capability. (Rogue with a longbow -> Ranger, smart and tactical Fighter -> Warlord)
3. No, you can't, and the fact that you can't is for the overall good of the game. (Sneak attacking greatsword, Ubershifter)
4. No, you can't, but its likely that you will sooner or later. (druid, monk)

You sir, have just won the internet.

I would add:

5. Yes, you can, but you also deal damage and kill things.
6. You're weird, and you really expect fringe concepts like that to be covered in the core rules and first few splats?

 

[Cadfan]

ExploderWizard- you're being dishonest. The psychic damage powers that actually exist have psychic themed special effects. 4e has been pretty good about that sort of thing.

There is a meaningful difference between something like Eldritch Blast (does damage at range) and Eyebite (does damage and overwhelms your opponent's mind, erasing their ability to see you).

If it really was Eldritch Blast (does damage) and Eyebite (does damage but now its psychic damage) with no other difference, I would agree with you, but that's not how it is and its not honest to claim otherwise.

Civility begins with not lying.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

ExploderWizard- you're being dishonest. The psychic damage powers that actually exist have psychic themed special effects. 4e has been pretty good about that sort of thing.

There is a meaningful difference between something like Eldritch Blast (does damage at range) and Eyebite (does damage and overwhelms your opponent's mind, erasing their ability to see you).

If it really was Eldritch Blast (does damage) and Eyebite (does damage but now its psychic damage) with no other difference, I would agree with you, but that's not how it is and its not honest to claim otherwise.

Civility begins with not lying.

Exactly. My point was that things that used to only do EFFECT now do EFFECT+DAMAGE for a very good reason. They have made a decision to change spells from a binary On/Off ender effect to work with the system already in place. You can no longer just cast an "I win" spell, you have to wear down your opponent just like anyone else.

 

[Thasmodious]

Yes, and if I eat my peas separately or mix them up in my mashed potatoes it makes no difference because they are headed to the same place.

Everything to the hit points reminds me of The Robobattle Warrobot Subtable from an old TFTFB adventure :

Robobattle Warrobot Subtable:

1) Arm Hit: Robobattle Warrobot blows up real good.

2) Leg Hit: Robobattle Warrobot blows up real good.

3-5) Torso Hit: Robobattle Warrobot blows up real good.

6) Head Hit: Robobattle Warrobot blows up real good.

I've never, in my near 30 years of playing D&D, heard any player exclaim "lighting bolt and fireball are exactly the same thing, just one is in a line and the other a circle" but that is exactly what you are doing.

By your stretch, every damage dealing spell in every edition of D&D is really just the same thing except silver instead of purple.

Cadfan is right, you're simply being dishonest in order to meet your goal of yet some more thoughtless, inaccurate criticism.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Exactly. My point was that things that used to only do EFFECT now do EFFECT+DAMAGE for a very good reason. They have made a decision to change spells from a binary On/Off ender effect to work with the system already in place. You can no longer just cast an "I win" spell, you have to wear down your opponent just like anyone else.

This is why every class ends up feeling the same. Fighters also deal damage + effect, and have damage only "spells". The only differences are the costumes and props.

The magic missile comparison was meant to be humorous and not exactly
" the troof".

 

[ExploderWizard]

I've never, in my near 30 years of playing D&D, heard any player exclaim "lighting bolt and fireball are exactly the same thing, just one is in a line and the other a circle" but that is exactly what you are doing.

Aside from the resistance issues arising from damage type and thier respective areas of effect, yes they ARE the same thing. They are both level 3 attack spells that bring on the pain.

By your stretch, every damage dealing spell in every edition of D&D is really just the same thing except silver instead of purple.

Except for targeting resistances by damage type anything that whittles down hitpoints is pretty much the same .

Cadfan is right, you're simply being dishonest in order to meet your goal of yet some more thoughtless, inaccurate criticism.

I won't respond to this point because I have more class than that.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This is why every class ends up feeling the same. Fighters also deal damage + effect, and have damage only "spells". The only differences are the costumes and props.

Is this theorycraft or your personal experience? Did playing a Fighter really feel the same as a Wizard? Did you use the same approach to combat, the same tactics. Did you not play these characters differently at all?

Just as an example on how damage + effect can be different:
1) Deal 2d4+INT damage at Range 20, opponent is pulled 3 squares.
2) Deal 2d4+INT damage at Range 20, opponent is dazed.
3) Deal 1[W]+STR damage at Melee Range, opponent is knocked prone.

Do these really work the same? Would you use 1) the same way you used 2)? Would these two powers in play feel that similar? Can't you think of situations where 1) would be more effective then 2), or the other way around? Is 3) not very different in application then 1) and 2)?

 

[Henry]

I remember threads going back to Eric Noah's forums on the exact same issue in the early days of 3E. "I can't have my Specialty Priest of Talos that Casts lightning bolts at will!" or "I can't make a real Fighter/Mage, only this silly half-class crap." "I can't make a bladesinger worth a darn with these crappy multiclassing rules!"

And no, you couldn't have a Wizard/Rogue that casted at stole just as well as his two same-level sngle classed buddies. That is, until more of the splatbooks came out a year later. And they still didn't work on the multiclass caster penalty until about 2004 or so, when the "Practiced Caster" feats and the Theurge came out.

I'm not saying 4E will fix all problems everyone has with it, because there are some genuine differences of game philosophy between the two, just like 2E and 3E.

 

[Remathilis]

There is a meaningful difference between something like Eldritch Blast (does damage at range) and Eyebite (does damage and overwhelms your opponent's mind, erasing their ability to see you).

Your defeating your own point.

Cloud of Daggers is JUST that; a zone of force attacks that create a specific effect. It doesn't Create zombie hands, it doesn't create fields of fluffy bunnies, it doesn't create illusionary birds that peck at your opponents mind. To say "reflavor cloud of daggers to create a lost spell/effect" isn't an answer, its a stopgap.

At a certain point, its no longer changing magic missile from silver to fuchsia, your using cloud of daggers to replicate a large swath of missing spell effects. Its the weakness of the damage + effect structure; around the time Charm Person does "1d6 + Int and the target REALLY likes you", things start to look fishy. There are legitimate effects people have mentioned that don't exist, and no amount of recoloring existing powers is going to fix it.

Especially since, in the end, your not creating a real power, your recoloring another. Might as well call your eldrich blast "Eyebite".

Listen, I understand some things had to be held off because of room, future supplements, etc. Just don't tell me using Cloud of Daggers to replicate nearly any lost spell effect assumes the 4e core-rules are as robust as 3e's or 2e's. Its just not true.