Size bonus to AC - drop it?

[Kerrick]

See where I'm going with this analogy? Medium size seems like a good baseline for size mods because we happen to be Medium creatures and because the word 'medium' implies baseline-ness, but using Medium as a mathematical baseline is as nonsensical as me choosing Size V ships as a baseline. If any size category is used as a mathematical baseline, it should be Tiny because Tiny is closest to zero mass.

I understand what you're saying. But let's say we start at Fine. How would you make the progression work? I think they chose Medium because they could easily go into negatives and positives, not because it's special or anything (though I'm sure they chose that size, as opposed to Small or Large, because humans are Medium).

Do titanic creatures get -16 to attack and AC?

Yeah. I forgot to mention that I used Upper Krust's natural armor formulae from his Challenging CRs v5 - scaled is 3-4 + 1/2 HD, and dragons also get a bonus equal to their age category, so after a good bit of work I figured out that the sizes needed to be moved around for everything to work properly.

That's an admirable goal. 3e isn't my preferred rule set, but I respect anyone who puts a significant amount of effort into any rule set.

Thanks. I think a lot of is simple boredom - if I didn't have something to do, I'd go nuts - but it is fun, if a lot of work.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I understand what you're saying. But let's say we start at Fine. How would you make the progression work?

Well I don't think there is a really good way of making exponential progressions work. Obviously the one that I posted earlier on this thread is just absurd from a balance perspective. Even if we modified it like this:

Fine: +10
Dim: +9
Tiny: +7
Small: +4
Medium: +0
Large: -5
Huge: -11
Garg: -18
Colossal: -26

I don't think it would be ideal. Workable, but awkward. This is why I suggested a flat bonus; because whatever minor difference it creates in stat blocks can be remedied with a tweak to natural armor and Strength.

Yeah. I forgot to mention that I used Upper Krust's natural armor formulae from his Challenging CRs v5 - scaled is 3-4 + 1/2 HD, and dragons also get a bonus equal to their age category, so after a good bit of work I figured out that the sizes needed to be moved around for everything to work properly.

Do you have a link to UK's CR guide? My own CR guide bases monster stats directly off of CR, and I'd like to see how UK handles it.

Thanks. I think a lot of is simple boredom - if I didn't have something to do, I'd go nuts - but it is fun, if a lot of work.

I myself alternate between writing up my own unique RPG and homebrewing material for my favored published game, which is currently 4e. The end result is that I use an extraordinary amount of time to get very little accomplished.

TS

 

[Kerrick]

Well I don't think there is a really good way of making exponential progressions work. Obviously the one that I posted earlier on this thread is just absurd from a balance perspective. Even if we modified it like this:

Fine: +10
Dim: +9
Tiny: +7
Small: +4
Medium: +0
Large: -5
Huge: -11
Garg: -18
Colossal: -26

I don't think it would be ideal. Workable, but awkward. This is why I suggested a flat bonus; because whatever minor difference it creates in stat blocks can be remedied with a tweak to natural armor and Strength.

I didn't really mean the increase in numbers; I was just wondering where you'd start - with Fine or Medium or what.

Do you have a link to UK's CR guide? My own CR guide bases monster stats directly off of CR, and I'd like to see how UK handles it.

Yeah. Here you go. He's going to release v6 in his final product, Godsend, soon (there's no hard date for it, but I'm hoping for the end of the month).

I myself alternate between writing up my own unique RPG and homebrewing material for my favored published game, which is currently 4e. The end result is that I use an extraordinary amount of time to get very little accomplished.

I've spent a huge amount of time on the monsters, mostly because they're so freaking boring that I sometimes can't bring myself to work on them. I'm almost done, though!

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I didn't really mean the increase in numbers; I was just wondering where you'd start - with Fine or Medium or what.

I'm not really sure what you're asking. If I want an exponential progression, I'd start with Fine. Medium should remain +0 of course for the sake of player sanity.

For my own RPG, I assigned Medium size the +0 modifier, and each category away from Medium gets a flat +/-2 modifier. But then, I also give Small creatures half the reach of Medium creatures which is effectively 0 reach. I'm not sure if I'm going to promote Hobbits to Medium size (which I define as 1 to 2 meters) or if I'll design them as something other than D&D's "we halflings are just as baddass as humans...just smaller. But despite our short arms and small swords, we're somehow just as dangerous as anyone else!"

Yeah. Here you go. He's going to release v6 in his final product, Godsend, soon (there's no hard date for it, but I'm hoping for the end of the month).

Wow, UK certainly has put a lot of time into this project. It's not exactly my cuppa' tea, but I've gotta give him props for all those fractions and equations.

I've spent a huge amount of time on the monsters, mostly because they're so freaking boring that I sometimes can't bring myself to work on them. I'm almost done, though!

Ugh, there are so many details that irk me in the D&D rules, I think I'd end up just rewriting the MM. Anyway, are you going alphabetically or by type or what? And are you doing monsters from splat books too?

TS

 

[Noumenon]

Grapple modifiers are a flat +/-4 per category, which is far too much - that's the main reason grappling is so broken.

Even if you change the size modifier to 0, big monsters' extra strength and extra hit-dice-fueled BAB still leaves them almost out of reach. In the worst case, a Gargantuan black dragon has a +46 grapple check without the size modifier. That's why I house ruled that the defender doesn't get to add his BAB to grapple checks. It makes escaping just tough enough and scales great for giant monsters.

 

[Kerrick]

I'm not really sure what you're asking. If I want an exponential progression, I'd start with Fine. Medium should remain +0 of course for the sake of player sanity.

That's what I was asking - where would you set the baseline. You kept saying using Medium made no sense.

For my own RPG, I assigned Medium size the +0 modifier, and each category away from Medium gets a flat +/-2 modifier. But then, I also give Small creatures half the reach of Medium creatures which is effectively 0 reach.

Half the reach of Medium is 2-1/2.

Wow, UK certainly has put a lot of time into this project. It's not exactly my cuppa' tea, but I've gotta give him props for all those fractions and equations.

Yeah... he said he spent something like 6 months coming up with all that. I find it invaluable - once you get the hang of it, you can figure up a creature's CR in a few minutes (things with a lot of SLAs take a little longer, of course...).

Ugh, there are so many details that irk me in the D&D rules, I think I'd end up just rewriting the MM. Anyway, are you going alphabetically or by type or what? And are you doing monsters from splat books too?

That's pretty much what I'm doing - fixing all the stupid/nonsensical stuff along with converting. I'm just working my way through alphabetically, because that's how the SRD files are organized. As for splat books... I'm not sure if I can post conversions for non-OGC material or not (even just "Change AC to xxx"), but since I don't have any splats, it's kind of a moot point.

Even if you change the size modifier to 0, big monsters' extra strength and extra hit-dice-fueled BAB still leaves them almost out of reach. In the worst case, a Gargantuan black dragon has a +46 grapple check without the size modifier. That's why I house ruled that the defender doesn't get to add his BAB to grapple checks. It makes escaping just tough enough and scales great for giant monsters.

True... but if you use the rule that you can't grapple something more than two sizes larger, you don't have to worry about it as much. That made me think, though... the Snatch feat enables Huge or larger creatures to grab someone. You'd be grappling against their hand/tentacle/claw/whatever, not the whole beast, so the size modifier should be smaller. That would probably be best inserted as an optional rule, though.

 

[Noumenon]

if you use the rule that you can't grapple something more than two sizes larger, you don't have to worry about it as much.

Um, I don't need a rule to tell me not to grapple things two sizes larger. The problem is, they keep grappling me. With my rule, giant monsters that are built to grapple you still work. You just have at least an outside chance of getting yourself free.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

That's what I was asking - where would you set the baseline. You kept saying using Medium made no sense.

I think I see. Well if I felt the irresistible urge to use exponential mods, I'd use the chart from a couple posts ago, with Fine starting with +10 and Colossal ending with -26. I'd have to tweak BABs and nat AC bonuses, but I'd be rewriting the MM anyway.

Half the reach of Medium is 2-1/2.

Right; but when one square is 5 ft., 2-1/2 ft. is effectively zero.

That's pretty much what I'm doing - fixing all the stupid/nonsensical stuff along with converting. I'm just working my way through alphabetically, because that's how the SRD files are organized. As for splat books... I'm not sure if I can post conversions for non-OGC material or not (even just "Change AC to xxx"), but since I don't have any splats, it's kind of a moot point.

Is your PP on the boards here? I'd like to give it a glance...if you don't mind the possibility of me nitpicking at things like size mods.

TS

 

[Kerrick]

Um, I don't need a rule to tell me not to grapple things two sizes larger. The problem is, they keep grappling me. With my rule, giant monsters that are built to grapple you still work. You just have at least an outside chance of getting yourself free.

I meant to say within two sizes of your own (larger OR smaller). Oopsie.

Right; but when one square is 5 ft., 2-1/2 ft. is effectively zero.

Oh. Right. Heh.

Is your PP on the boards here? I'd like to give it a glance...if you don't mind the possibility of me nitpicking at things like size mods.

It's not here, but I do have some stuff online here. Right now it's just a bunch of files; classes, PrCs, spells, and a couple other things. I'm working on a new wiki dedicated solely to PP, where I can put everything up like d20srd.org and make it an online resource. I've decided to put off finishing the monster conversions until after UK finishes Godsend, so I've got some time.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

It's not here, but I do have some stuff online here. Right now it's just a bunch of files; classes, PrCs, spells, and a couple other things. I'm working on a new wiki dedicated solely to PP, where I can put everything up like d20srd.org and make it an online resource. I've decided to put off finishing the monster conversions until after UK finishes Godsend, so I've got some time.

I read your talk about dragons being overpowered, and True Strike came to mind, which of course can be a problem with PCs too. A simple house rule I came up with is "You can't gain the benefits of any option that increases damage (feat, class ability, spell) with any attack augmented with True Strike." That removes the DM's temptation to use dive-power-attacking-true-striking dragons, and a few other problems.

I was also interested to see that you plan on eventually dealing with the epic rules. Other than the Immortal's Handbook, you may want to check out my own Epic Level Handbook that I wrote after running an epic game by RAW. *shudder*

TS