Sleep spell and a shout

[Rafe]

I disagree. The reason Sleep remains useful is because it isn't tied to damage

I agree completely.

 

[Brian999]

I don't feel it's all that powerful. There's no damage component and making a saving throw isn't all that tough. It also takes a failed save for the full effect to take hold (and that doesn't happen til the creatures' turns in the round). Creatures have a 55% chance each turn to end an effect if it even works in the first place.

That said, I can understand this being house-ruled to include a "damage ends" proviso. Depends on the people in the game and how they feel about it.

Consider, though: an orb wizard on the Wizard of the Spiral Tower paragon path with Spell Focus who wields a Cunning longsword, an Orb of Ultimate Imposition and a Phrenic Crown (all from Adventurers Vault), and who has been pumping Wisdom alongside Intelligence, can absolutely floor even a solo's chances of making a save. I believe such a wizard can actually make it impossible for anything hit by Sleep to ever make its save (although I can't remember right now if a natural roll of 20 always makes the save, regardless of penalties).


Bring along a Warlock friend with Dreadful Word, and you don't really have to worry about missing the initial attack.

 

[Lacyon]

Consider, though: an orb wizard on the Wizard of the Spiral Tower paragon path with Spell Focus who wields a Cunning longsword, an Orb of Ultimate Imposition and a Phrenic Crown (all from Adventurers Vault), and who has been pumping Wisdom alongside Intelligence, can absolutely floor even a solo's chances of making a save. I believe such a wizard can actually make it impossible for anything hit by Sleep to ever make its save (although I can't remember right now if a natural roll of 20 always makes the save, regardless of penalties).

Barring of course powers that say "the target passes a saving throw".

(I'm pretty sure I'm going to rule that saving throw penalties don't stack when I get around to running my first 4E game. Not sure if I'll extend that to save bonuses as well or not.)

 

[Brian999]

Barring of course powers that say "the target passes a saving throw".

Are there monster powers that let them automatically pass saving throws? I don't have the MM on-hand.

 

[Lacyon]

Are there monster powers that let them automatically pass saving throws? I don't have the MM on-hand.

There's at least one in the PHB which an NPC or classed-monster could have.

(Or, of course, the DM could swap it out on an existing monster or give it to The Monster the DM Made Up Himself).

 

[James McMurray]

(I'm pretty sure I'm going to rule that saving throw penalties don't stack when I get around to running my first 4E game. Not sure if I'll extend that to save bonuses as well or not.)

That's what I did in my epic game. The warlock's player is switching to wizard because the wizard's player switched to swordmage. The new wizard player is much more min-maxy than the old and I didn't want to see Orcus falling down with a -20 or more to saves.

Are there monster powers that let them automatically pass saving throws? I don't have the MM on-hand.

The phane can take a minor action to remove any effect on him, whether it allows a save or not. I'm not sure if there are other similar abilities, but I wouldn't doubt it.

An NPC could easily get a power. A Swordmage NPC could have a stance that lets him automatically remove a "save ends" effect at the end of every turn.

Of course, none of that helps you if you're alone and asleep.

 

[DanmarLOK]

Obviously anyone's able to rule as they like on what wakes up a slept person but official ruling is the only way to wake from sleep is to make the save. I've got the emails from CSR and higher levels to prove it when I was making the argument that it could be come a epic killer (sleep monster, everyone burns an action point to get two standard cdg's against the mob which is a brutal amount of damage if they all hit, if the creature manages to fail its saving throw once, that's yet another brutal amount of damage if they hit.).

BUT officially and after multiple questioning, sleep isn't sleep, it's a magically induced state of unconciousness that can ONLY be broken by a successful saving throw. the name sleep was, in my personal opinion an guess, kept simply to keep one of the iconic names from the prior conditions.

 

[Caliban]

The phane can take a minor action to remove any effect on him, whether it allows a save or not. I'm not sure if there are other similar abilities, but I wouldn't doubt it.

An NPC could easily get a power. A Swordmage NPC could have a stance that lets him automatically remove a "save ends" effect at the end of every turn.

Of course, none of that helps you if you're alone and asleep.

Well, you are slowed for a round before you are asleep. If they use those abilities in the first round after being hit with the spell, they never have to make the save that would put them to sleep.

 

[Keenath]

I don't feel it's all that powerful. There's no damage component and making a saving throw isn't all that tough. It also takes a failed save for the full effect to take hold (and that doesn't happen til the creatures' turns in the round). Creatures have a 55% chance each turn to end an effect if it even works in the first place.

That said, I can understand this being house-ruled to include a "damage ends" proviso. Depends on the people in the game and how they feel about it.

Considering how deadly Sleep was in my game when the greataxe-weilding fighter came over and used a Coup on the sleeping shadowhunter bat... yeah. I'd rather not having him using that two and three times before they wake up. It went from full health to like 3 HP in one hit. A single free crit is plenty for virtually any game group to be happy with.

 

[James McMurray]

It's not a free crit. It cost the wizard an action, a daily spell, had to hit, and could be saved against in the round it took to knock the bat unconscious.