4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

[Raven Crowking]

I find it less likely, but your orange re-quotes, just a few posts below it, also match the article. I'm going to guess that you quoted the most troubling passages, and would find it strange that Dave Noonan would edit the whole blog except for the most troubling parts.

Yup.

You and Lonely Tylenol are correct; I am wrong.

What Glyfair changed was the thread title. Mea culpa.

I think that's kind of a topic jump, but no, I don't think the PR campaign was done as well as it could have been. That's neither here nor there, though.

I think that a lot of the animosity toward the new edition that we are seeing now is still a run-on from the PR campaign then.

I could be wrong.

As just demonstrated, I've been wrong before, and will be wrong again.


RC

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Who cares about the quote? I know us gamers are known for being overly sensitive and righteous types, but hasn't this gone a bit too far?

If Bob says he didn't like 3E and has made a game he likes, then good for Bob. If Bob happened to be a 3E designer and a 4E designer, then maybe that's a way for Bob to express he's - based on his experience - improved the game. Isn't that what we want from designers?

Bob's intent wasn't to say anyone who liked 3E was a dilrod. There are dilrods who like every version of every game. I'm a dilrod.

 

[ExploderWizard]

It's a bad precedent as well...D&D 6E will likely have the Grelpnor (TM) - who are short, with beards, a tendency to be dour, but they are NOT called dwarves!!!

They live in great jungle cities called Fippypucks (TM)..the good news is that they get the feat Triumph of Seven Puppies (TM) for free at first lavvel (TM), and are immediately thrumficient (TM) in multiple Weppinz (TM), including the Braggonfek (TM). (Playset and figures sold separately - - to use any of these words in casual speech please refer to the GSL v 3.4, noting that using these words constitutes agreement to never use OGL words again).

ROFL.

If you use Grelphor (TM) living in Fippypucks (TM) in your 3pp adventure then it will cost you Fiddybucks

 

[Obryn]

I suppose I could give some effort towards finding other references to Mr. Noonan's blog on other sites, but as I am not suggesting malice on Mr. Noonan's (or Glyfair's) part, is there any real point

For you? Not really. Shadeydm accused Hussar of revisionism, though, and I'd like to figure out the truth of the matter.

-O

 

[Raven Crowking]

For you? Not really. Shadeydm accused Hussar of revisionism, though, and I'd like to figure out the truth of the matter.

-O

AFAICT, in this case, the fault is completely mine.

RC

 

[pawsplay]

At the same time, while it may be a legitimate complaint, it's also a bit unrealistic.

Ultimately, they would want as wide of an audience as possible for a new edition.

It saddens me that to a certain extent. While I understand the drive to produce profits, especially in a narrowly profitable enterprise, I have always felt that RPG design should not simply be about increasing quarterlies, but actually refining and improving the design. "Giving the people what they want" is a laudable goal, and I can sympathize with the design team's goal of addressing certain problems, but overhauling the engine every couple of editions leads to two considerable problems:

- really good solutions are never found for the majority of issues; instead, each version has simply a different set of flaws, and
- over time, you end up with competing fanbases, and it will ultimately be impossible to please them all

I suppose it might be possible to make a 5e that echoes a lot of 3e, then a 6e than echoes 4e, but I would consider that a cynical strategy.

From a certain standpoint, it might be nice to continue both families of design, but unfortunately, that takes resources. Further, it puts the games in competition. That is, unfortunately, part of the reason the GSL was created.

While 3e fans can be faulted for at times being irrational in their criticisms, I think it must be admitted that they are justifiably angry that WotC has actually attempted to stamp out support for their chosen edition. While I can believe someone like Mearls might oppose something like that, it's just not fair to pretend that didn't happen and that an edition war of sorts is not going on.

Fans do face pressure to update; the new digital tools support the new edition, only the new edition is being supported, and sufficient compatibility issues were introduced that many miniatures and sourcebooks are now incompatible with the new D&D world. Further, the third party publishers have been squeezed, in many cases being asked to abandon 3e in order to support 4e with a particular product line. Third edition is under attack.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I suppose, if you want to look at it that way. Once you get passed third level all versions of DND start to look like a supers game.

Really? I wouldn't say ALL.

A third level AD&D fighter, while better with weapons, is still a fairly mundane soldier.

A fifth level AD&D thief is very much a regular guy with a few special skills.

Clerics and Magic Users perform more spectacular spells as they gain levels but it is MAGIC after all.

Sure once you get to 3E and give rogues and fighters magic-like abilities at higher levels it starts looking kind of supers like.

 

[Raven Crowking]

May I point out that any supers game is, almost by definition, also a fantasy game? And that one could make the argument that the reverse is also true?


RC

 

[Obryn]

AFAICT, in this case, the fault is completely mine.

RC

Yah, sorry, I'm at work and I was working on my post well after you'd made your post, above. So I apologize if it looks like I was harping - I'm not, I'm just slow on the Reply button.

-O

 

[Mallus]

The truth isn't an aggressive animal.

Apropos of nothing, I love this phrase. Nice job!

If we take a supers rpg and replace all the trappings with fantasy, but the PC's all still use superpowers, then its still a supers game.

True. But D&D always turns into a fantasy-themed supers game, if your character's level enough (at least in 1e-3.5e).

Oddly enough, while low-level 4e characters resemble superheroes more than their previous edition counterparts do, high-level 4e character resemble them less, thanks to changes in caster classes.

The 13th level PC's in the 3.5e game I run are, beyond the shadow of a doubt, fantasy superheroes. The group has 4 full-progression spellcasters and resemble the Justice League in terms of powers and abilities (though not, it should be said, in their commitment to the idea of justice).

The 21st level PC's in our new epic 4e playtest campaign are far less superheroic. Hell, they still ride things that resemble horses to get from one place to the next...