4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

Ah, but what about the belief that objective reality doesn't exist, but that knowing even that, objectively, isn't possible?

That's simply impossible. In that case, the reality would be that nothing exists. But that doesn't exist, so nothing doesn't exist... It is entirely possible, of course, that ultimate reality is unknowable, but not for it to be not ultimate.
 

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He didn't say it did.

I can't speak for him, but he may be commenting on the conceptual similarity. As phloog mentions, it's kind of like a "power that allows you to take all enemies within a burst, and force them without a save, and without any consideration of their own abilities, to move adjacent to your character".

I can see the similarities. It may be enough of a difference for some people, but not enough for others. *shrug*

Yeah, I think it has to do with wrist strength and genetic predisposition to repetitive strain injuries like carpal tunnel...some people are content to wave their hands more than others, and that makes us all different and the world wonderful.
 

No more 'dance of the narrative' then is required to explain people shooting fireballs out of their fingertips or raising people from the dead. The only difference is that in D&D, fireballs and resurrection have tenure.

We are talking about a fantasy world here, with fireballs and dragons and beholders and stuff. I don't see where mundane guy who owns a sword really fits in, or has any business looking for the trouble that exists in that world. Still, the guy with a sword is a fantasy mainstay, and people want to play them. How do we make this mundane guy with the sword logically fit into this world? By letting him do the sort of things action heroes do, thats how.

I actually find it made less sense before, when your special powers consisted solely of "owns a sword".



Yes! This is good. This mirrors my thinking, as well.


Telling stories or running games which are full of mundane guys with swords is fine. I like low fantasy, too. I like playing in those sorts of campaigns, sometimes, too.

But how do you "realistically" explain those mundane guys with swords, who we're declaring to be, essentially, "not much different" from any normal fellow here in our own real world who happens to have trained a lot in fighting with a sword, slaying things like ancient dragons and incorporeal dread wraiths and death titans and hordes of demons and incredibly powerful magic-wielding liches and exarchs of GODS?


If you keep anything which a "normal guy with a stick" couldn't realistically be expected to be able to defeat out of the game, then sure, a low-magic game where Fighters and Rogues are highly mundane but skilled folks, essentially on par with Navy Seals or CIA operatives or world-champion martial artists or similar real-world "martial heroes" would make a lot of sense and work great.

But when you say, "I want all of the martial characters to be really mundane, normal, non-magical, non-mystical basic tough guys with great fighting skill, and only able to do the same sorts of things which George S. Patton or Bruce Lee or Miyamoto Musashi or Richard Marcinko or Alexander the Great or Jack Bauer or Jason Bourne or Indiana Jones could do" and then throw them into a campaign full of insanely powerful supernatural threats and mythological monsters . . . I find that to be a greater strain on credulity and verisimilitude than the idea that maybe the guys who are kicking the crap out of demon princes and fire-breathing beasts the size of large houses with nothing but a four-foot-long piece of steel and a bad attitude just might have to have some superheroic capabilities beyond anything that anyone on Earth can muster.


Conan and Aragorn (and Drizzt, and any other martial-type protagonist in a D&D-based novel) were not mundane, even if they didn't throw around anything flashy like fireballs, super speed, flight, or the like. They fought things which no "mundane" man could ever reasonably be expected to fight, and won. Regularly. (More so Conan than Aragorn, but show me the normal fighting man on Earth who could realistically scrap with Nazgul and I'll retract my point.)

Being "really skilled" would only take you so far, when you're fighting against magic, myth, colossal beasts and extraplanar immortals of awesome might. There'd almost have to be some degree of superhuman power going on, logically, for these "mundane" sword-swingers and dagger-chuckers to survive in such encounters, let alone prevail.


That's just me, though. I guess if it makes more sense for people to imagine the Krav Maga instructor who lives down the street from you killing the Tarrasque, go for it. It's your game, have fun any way you want.


But if 4E D&D happens to represent a fantasy world in which the non-spellcasting heroes who are expected to overcome these massive, epic, impossible challenges have some degree of personal, internally-derived "magical" or "mystical" or "supernatural" power which allows them to be victorious, I consider that very much a sensible feature, not a flaw or something which damages immersion for the sake of gamism.


I can, of course, see how some people wouldn't like that style of game. Some people just prefer low(er) fantasy, and I get that. By all means, play what you like. It's not "wrongbadfun" to prefer a less over-the-top, less magical game setting and less superheroic characters. I really like that kind of game or fiction, too. Go go Lankhmar!

I can't, however, quite get their logic if they're running games which purport to be about protagonist heroes who are as mundane and un-superhuman as normal Earth folks, yet feature the kind of paranormal monsters and magic-using enemies which make up the vast majority of opponents featured in all D&D books since day one, as well as most other fantasy stories and roleplaying games, ever.


I tend to view all PC protagonist hero characters in D&D as being a whole lot like the concept of "Adepts" from Earthdawn. Everyone had their own kind of "magic", even if that magic was just being able to fight really, really well with a sword, or be an incredible thief. The point was that Adepts were special and could do things that normal people couldn't, because they fueled even their seemingly-mundane skills with an inborn, internally-generated "magical" power.

That makes way more sense to me than just, "I'm basically a regular guy, but I've been practicing my sword forms out in the back yard for the last 20 years, so now I can go kill a gargantuan dracolich who could decimate cities and armies . . . with my trusty sharp stick here."



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There is, by the way a way to deal with "mundane" heroes and "mystic/magial" monsters in the same setting could be to ... not do this.

Characters start as Fighters, but at some point, they will inevitably learn the secrets of magic or ordain themselves as priests of their god(s). And then the get supernatural power.

But... That's not really D&D, is it? Or can it become D&D, maybe in D&D 5E?

Closer to D&D (at least 3e) would be stock up incredible numbers of magical items that make the character essentially a supernatural hero. He's just a "gadget" hero instead of a hero with innate powers. Sure, his BAB, Saves and HP still increase, but he would still be nothing against Dracolichs and Demons without his +4 Holy Sword and his +4 Belt of Strength and his +4 Ring of Protection and his +4 Full Plate.

But... Is that really satisfactory? How many people hated the magical item "Christmas Tree", the idea that you need magical item shops or easy item creation or loads of magical treasures to make a character work at higher levels against the threats he has to face then?

Ultimately, all models - "pseudo-magical" martial abilities, turning every character into a wizard or cleric at higher levels, loading up magical bling - work.
But each of them has its flaws, too.
Decide what your priorities are, and pick your preference.
 


Conan and Aragorn (and Drizzt, and any other martial-type protagonist in a D&D-based novel) were not mundane, even if they didn't throw around anything flashy like fireballs, super speed, flight, or the like. They fought things which no "mundane" man could ever reasonably be expected to fight, and won. Regularly. (More so Conan than Aragorn, but show me the normal fighting man on Earth who could realistically scrap with Nazgul and I'll retract my point.)
*blinks* Chuck Norris, duh.

But really - I can't make any sense of what you're saying. All I can do is chalk it up to "style differences", and move on. Your whole post was - to me - something that someone from the planet Zbornak would say. Needless to say, I couldn't disagree more.
 

SNIP

Conan and Aragorn (and Drizzt, and any other martial-type protagonist in a D&D-based novel) were not mundane, even if they didn't throw around anything flashy like fireballs, super speed, flight, or the like.

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I think we are using different definitions of 'mundane', or your definition is moving about. When I say 'mundane', I do NOT mean 'run of the mill', 'normal', 'bleh', etc. I mean 'possessing no arcane or mystical abilities' - sort of the Xanth book definition I guess. So Jessica Alba has exceptional beauty, but by my definition she is mundane.

Conan and Aragorn WERE mundane in my opinion, and I feel that it is precisely BECAUSE they didn't throw fireballs around, fly, or mystically suck all enemies within a burst to striking range.

They were able to defeat great foes because they were vastly superior to the common man, but made from the same matter and in possession of no mystical powers.

Being able to fight and defeat demons, dragons, Nazgul, etc. does not make you magical or non-mundane in my campaign, it makes you a HERO - an exceptional specimen, whether or not you have the ability to do magic.

If I've missed the REH book where Conan does something that I would consider mystical forgive me. I will grant you that he is not 'normal', and further that perhaps his combination of strength, skill, dexterity, and tactical ability has never before been seen in real life. But all of these attributes are a 'pushing the limits' of what normal folk can do thing, and NOT magic. For my campaign accepting that these abilities can be developed by normal, non-mystical ways to high levels is consistent with the stories I want to tell...in your campaign apparently all fighters who are able to defeat powerful enemies must be magical...it just doesn't work for me.

Saying that my own tubby frame is no match for a Nazgul is diverting the argument (though I've heard you can fight them off by just waving a flaming stick at them).

The point is that it does not take me a huge amount of 'hand waving' to imagine a human who has no magical abilities, but is just insanely good at combat...so good that they CAN fight these beasts and have a chance to win.

If you want to call them superhuman then fine, but the NATURE of these abilities stems from their normal human attributes built up to high levels.

Again it's a flavor of the campaign thing. My campaign supports a Conan-like figure who has immense strength, immense skill, and based only upon these highly developed (by NON-MAGICAL means) abilities can fight dragons and win. I don't need magical powers for fighters, and a rules system that introduces things that seem like magic to all classes removes this option for players, or at least makes it tougher.

EDIT: Also, you should realize that in my campaign I would most likely never have the Tarrasque...the strongest creatures I tend to use are larger dragons and demons, and my campaign works just peachy with highly advanced Conan types taking down dragons.
 
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EDIT: Also, you should realize that in my campaign I would most likely never have the Tarrasque...the strongest creatures I tend to use are larger dragons and demons, and my campaign works just peachy with highly advanced Conan types taking down dragons.

You realize that this is the heroic tier of 4e right? Large size and smaller monsters, martial abilities that aren't superheroic, etc.
 

You realize that this is the heroic tier of 4e right? Large size and smaller monsters, martial abilities that aren't superheroic, etc.

I'm not sure how this is relevant to the mundane/mystical/flavor thing. The problem is that there are powers and such that seem to provide nearly mystical abilities to classes that (in MY campaign) I want to be more mundane.

Yes, I realize the intent of the heroic tier is lower POWER LEVELS, but the nature/flavor of those powers is an issue even at that tier. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the biggest offender I've found is Come and Get It, and I think that's available well before you end the heroic tier (7th level maybe? no books in front of me)

The argument from another about 'how can a mundane character fight a mighty dragon' has sort of sidetracked the key point I was making - - it's a point not about power level (who can you fight, what can you do), but about the nature of those powers in the campaign.

So imagine if there was a FIRST level power that allowed fighters to throw their melee weapon around a corner once per day at a range of up to nine feet. This is not a huge amount of power - it won't instantly kill the Tarrasque, but it's giving a power that is seemingly magical to a character class that in MY campaign I want to have no mystical powers.
 


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