The New 4th Edition God-Killing Rules

[DandD]

Okay, so after ignore your ridiculous and nonsensical EverQuest example, I'm going to question you about why you believe WotC should publish material for every isolated interest in the community.

Your buddy (/fellow threadcrapper ) Shemeska pointed out how few people might be interested in deicide in D&D: a fraction, and potentially a small one. We also know that the number of players who prefer to be "goodie-goodie stompin'" evil characters is a fraction of the community, also possibly a very small one. So, justanobody, during this global economic crisis, you're demanding that WotC pay someone to write and publish material that a small fraction of a small fraction of their consumer base will actually be willing to use? Seriously? I can only assume that you must completely lack any understand of market economics or business sense. Are you a Communist, justanobody?

*sigh* Where's that idiot Joseph McCarthy when you finally need him?

Ugh, watch out, the mods don't like this tone in any thread reply, so you should better reword it.

 

[Obryn]

How many gods are in the PHB? Would that really be too much to ask to have those with stats, in case.

In case of what? You roll a random encounter and, OOPS! It's Pelor!

Really, if you're facing Pelor, there had better well have been a freaking campaign leading up to it. He's not showing up randomly. Odds are, you've had an adolescent power-fantasy evil campaign leading up to it, and you've had plenty of time to make stuff.

That would give core players something to do with their epic destinies and level 30 that is in the book other than fight Orcus a couple of times. How many times can you kill one deity anyway?

What point is there to invade other planes if you are going there to raise hell and think that the one in charge might not just get pissed about it and take it personal and come for you?

I don't know where to start. OK, you're running a presumably evil campaign where the PCs just sit up one day and say, "Heck, let's go out and invade Pelor's home plane!" So, they start raping and pillaging the angelic hosts, and eventually Pelor shows up. They do this all spur of the moment, so the DM of course has no time to prepare, and of course there was nothing leading up to it.

So, thought experiment: Let's say this is 3e and you don't have whatever book has stats for Pelor. What would the DM do, then? Why could he not do the same in 4e?

I don't think the PHB deities are really too much to ask for.

The designers do. You just heard from one. I, personally, will never need stats for Pelor. If your campaign is one of the four that needs stats for Pelor, I suppose your DM will just have to do what DMs have been doing for 30 years, and make something up.

-O

 

[doctorhook]

Did you not understand the EQ reference and its relationship to the current idea?

I understand that you're talking about how EQ was broken and not updated, and I understand that you're trying to use that as a explanation why WotC should publish material that hardly anyone will ever use.

How many gods are in the PHB? Would that really be too much to ask to have those with stats, in case.

...

I don't think the PHB deities are really too much to ask for.

...

So how are the deities in the PHB somehow some corner cases when they are the defaults?

I consider them corner cases not because they aren't popular, but because they aren't popular as foes.

I'll grant you that if they stat up any Good or Lawful Good deities, it should be the ones from the Player's Handbook first.

Forgotten Realms seems to have a few less deities now.....nobody knows what is going on with Eberron.

FR could've use a few less deities. In Eberron, OTOH, things fit neatly together. I really hope they don't dump any of them.

Ugh, watch out, the mods don't like this tone in any thread reply, so you should better reword it.

You're probably right, DandD. I'll apologize and do just that. (It's just that this guy frustrates me so much sometimes! )

justanobody: I'm sorry I called you a Communist, and wished for you to be blacklisted. It wasn't friendly of me, and I shouldn't have said it. I hope you can forgive me.

Like I said above, it's just that you frustrate me so much sometimes! You waltz into a forum and complain about anything and everything you can regarding 4E. Often you use irrelevant statements and even outright misinformation to "make" your points. Frankly, it's really irritating to see someone come and make stuff up while the rest of us are trying to have a positive conversation about 4E. If you're so unhappy with 4E, why don't you just stop coming here and talking about it? I really wish that you'd stop it, justanobody; we're entitled to the right to enjoy whatever we want to, and we enjoy 4E.

 

[justanobody]

There isn't enough asbestos and retardant foam in the world for what I think of the rest of your post.

For this portion...

Really, if you're facing Pelor, there had better well have been a freaking campaign leading up to it.

No. I would be planning just to plop out level 30 characters to just face Pelor for a one-shot.

It goes without saying that a level 30 character has probably been through a whole campaign, so what is your point?

 

[Obryn]

There isn't enough asbestos and retardant foam in the world for what I think of the rest of your post.

I can't see where I personally attacked you. Could you point that part out to me?

No. I would be planning just to plop out level 30 characters to just face Pelor for a one-shot.

It goes without saying that a level 30 character has probably been through a whole campaign, so what is your point?

My point is that the DM has more than enough time to create stats for Pelor if there's a strange, corner-case campaign leading up to fighting him. What's more, 4e has provided the DM with basic guidelines for creature creation and at least one example of a similar challenge.

-O

 

[Shemeska]

I'll apologize and do just that.

It would be appreciated.

 

[justanobody]

There isn't enough asbestos and retardant foam in the world for what I think of the rest of your post.

I can't see where I personally attacked you. Could you point that part out to me?

You have the order backwards.

My point is that the DM has more than enough time to create stats for Pelor if there's a strange, corner-case campaign leading up to fighting him. What's more, 4e has provided the DM with basic guidelines for creature creation and at least one example of a similar challenge.

-O

I guess as a proof to see exactly what is possible someone needs to try something crazy with 4th and face off Tiamat against Orcus.

See how the deities stand toe-to-toe, to see if the there is enough information to say a DM can create a working representation of a deitie out of Pelor, should they be forced to.

Note 1: You don't know how much time a DM has.

Note 2: If a DM has enough time to create a deity, then he has enough time to create his own game and not need ANYTHING from a company that cannot provide the stats for the deities listed in the PHB that has the first occurrence of deities within the game they publish.

@MerricB:

Got your PDF copies handy and can do a quick count of level 30 appropriate monsters without upgrading lower levels for a party to fight? TIA.

 

[doctorhook]

It would be appreciated.

I made sure to remove the off-hand flame I aimed at you, Shemeska. It was angry, out of line, and inappropriate, and I want to apologize to you, as well. It wasn't cool of me.

 

[The Little Raven]

I guess as a proof to see exactly what is possible someone needs to try something crazy with 4th and face off Tiamat against Orcus.

See how the deities stand toe-to-toe, to see if the there is enough information to say a DM can create a working representation of a deitie out of Pelor, should they be forced to.

So, it comes down to you wanting a giant NPC deathmatch featuring deities?

NPC versus NPC does not show you exactly what is possible with the system. It shows you very little about the system, in fact.

If a DM has enough time to create a deity, then he has enough time to create his own game and not need ANYTHING from a company that cannot provide the stats for the deities listed in the PHB that has the first occurrence of deities within the game they publish.

Creating an entire game system requires way more time, effort, and talent than just creating the stat block for a deity. Suggesting that anyone who has the time to write up stats equally one-half of a page has the time to design, develop, playtest, and write a game that is hundreds of pages is beyond ridiculous, it's downright disconnecting from reality.

 

[Shemeska]

I made sure to remove the off-hand flame I aimed at you, Shemeska. It was angry, out of line, and inappropriate, and I want to apologize to you, as well. It wasn't cool of me.

Apology accepted. No hard feelings.