4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

I don't see any Martial powers in this game which describe an occurrence happening which could never happen here in normal, mundane Earth, or which has never happened. I don't see a single Martial power which, when I read it, I think, "There's just NO WAY that could ever happen in the real world. What a fake superpower!"
.

You're kind of flipping the argument in a direction I don't think I ever suggested (a bit strawman-y, to be Whedonesque).

Even CAGI could happen in the real world - I taunt everyone and they all rush me. I don't know that I've ever suggested that it could NEVER happen....you are using your argument that it COULD happen to try to dismiss my issue with the fact that it ALWAYS works, and ALWAYS draws in all foes regardless of their own statistics, abilities, and desires.

Could the martial artist say 'come and get it' and every drunk yokel who's already itching for a fight in the bar does indeed move adjacent to him? Absolutely it could happen...this isn't the argument I'm making at all.

The argument I'm making is about enemies who are not drunk, who have incredible ability to size up an opponent, supreme willpower, and who are armed with a magic wand that does insta-kill damage so long as they are not adjacent to their target...because you know what these towers of intellect do in 4e? They forget all else and rush the fighter...this is where it becomes mystical (FOR ME, remember).

EDIT: ALSO, as a former player and someone who LOVES Earthdawn, my memory was sparked by an earlier post. I had no problem with powers of the warrior class in that game being odd and hard to explain in mundane (=non-magical) terms, because that's the world/campaign that's being run....EVERYTHING is magical. If I wanted that in D&D, I would (like many here) not have this issue with 4th edition.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Come and Get It? Is anyone on this thread actually of the opinion that the scenario described in this power is so impossible, so patently supernatural and contrary to the laws of reality as our science understands them, that this could never happen in the real world?

I wouldn't say never. If your bad dude walked into a bar full of robots which were not programmed to respond to such commands (golems) or islanders who only spoke an obscure foreign language would the power still work? If so why?
 

If you walked into a bar, and saw a big fight breaking out, and some guy in a karate stance looked around at the half-dozen people around him, taunted them, and dared them to "come and get it" and then you subsequently observed all of those people rushing to attack him, would you immediately think, "HOLY CRAP, OH MY GOD, THAT WAS MAGIC!"

If it happened to me, then yes, my experience of that would be like some sort of magical mind-control. Because my character is not to run up to fight people, especially people I don't who are doing advanced karate in a bar. And I can't get away from intepreting it that way for the NPC's in that situation, as well.
 

If your bad dude walked into a bar full of robots which were not programmed to respond to such commands (golems)

I myself wouldn't cast that situation as one likely to happen in "the real world". :D

or islanders who only spoke an obscure foreign language would the power still work? If so why?

Body language trumps vocal language when it comes to agression. :lol:

/M
 

You're kind of flipping the argument in a direction I don't think I ever suggested (a bit strawman-y, to be Whedonesque).

It's not a strawman. Posters have been arguing throughout this thread that MANY martial powers don't work unless explained as mystical or inherently magical. When I hit this line above with examples related to heroic acts from fiction the response from the people raising those issues was "well sure, not THOSE powers, but others". He's just asking - what others? It's an honest question.

and ALWAYS draws in all foes regardless of their own statistics, abilities, and desires.

This is a disconnect of design intentions. With 3e, the designers saw the need to tackle every corner case and created a lot of subsystems and a lot more corner cases each time. They learned from this with 4e and decided to leave corner cases to be handled by the groups that had a problem with them. It's a corner case, deal with it how you see fit. Disallow the power, modify it so it does basically the same effect, without the forced move (make it so the fighter feigns an injury so his opponents drop their guard just a bit, then he explodes in a burst of speed himself, and shifts himself, attacking everyone in a burst 3).

The silliness ensues when people like exploderwizard claim that the 4e powers fail because you can find a corner case or two to throw at 1 or 2 martial powers that create a situation that is a bit difficult to explain. When it has already been explained as design intent by the designers that they aren't going to fret over the odd corner case, its hard to rationally call that "fail".

The shared narrative control works both ways. If one of the surrounding NPCs woud not possibly ever charge the fighter, the DM can simply say this guy doesn't do it. The no armed, naked guy with no means to attack doesn't bull rush the fighter along with everyone else. But is it really inconceivable that the wizard does? The wizard who sees the fighter going down, who sees his minions rushing in for the kill, he doesn't charge in preparing to blast the fighter with one of his close burst powers (something he might well do on his own on his turn, after having allowed or positioned himself within 15' of the deadly fighter anyway)? Powers he took specifically for melee damage? He couldn't conceivably be tricked or taunted by the wily fighter? "I'll show you why I am the master of Thunder!"

It wouldn't be outside the spirit of the rules to allow someone for whom it would clearly be a huge mistake to charge the fighter to get a save either, like when a forced move effect is going to throw you off a cliff.

The argument I'm making is about enemies who are not drunk, who have incredible ability to size up an opponent, supreme willpower, and who are armed with a magic wand that does insta-kill damage so long as they are not adjacent to their target

Why don't you work a bit harder to build up your Super-Corner? He could also have a gimped leg and walk with a cane, so that movement is not easy for him, and he also has an extreme phobia for violations of personal space, and is enveloped by a magical force shield that makes him impervious to all damage but stops working if he is within 5' of anyone...

EDIT: ALSO, as a former player and someone who LOVES Earthdawn, my memory was sparked by an earlier post. I had no problem with powers of the warrior class in that game being odd and hard to explain in mundane (=non-magical) terms, because that's the world/campaign that's being run....EVERYTHING is magical. If I wanted that in D&D, I would (like many here) not have this issue with 4th edition.

So you open your post accusing someone who asks for examples of the magical nature of these martial exploits by claiming that's a strawman argument that you aren't actually making, then close by saying that if the martial powers were just magical like in Earthdawn you wouldn't have any problem with it... Interesting.
 

The argument I'm making is about enemies who are not drunk, who have incredible ability to size up an opponent, supreme willpower, and who are armed with a magic wand that does insta-kill damage so long as they are not adjacent to their target...because you know what these towers of intellect do in 4e? They forget all else and rush the fighter...this is where it becomes mystical (FOR ME, remember)

D&D 4e (above all things in my opinion) seems to be about all players involved telling a communal story of some type. The story of your campaign.

A power like come and get it isn't about your character forcing his opponents to do anything. It's about the player placing some input into the overall story.

The player getting to say:

1. "At this point in the fight scene, my character is rushed by his enemy."

and

2. "This is how my character responds when he is rushed by said enemy."

The "character" doesn't know the player did anything. He's just responding to the fact that he was rushed by an enemy. It's like one participant in an improv situtation introducing a new element the others can play off of.

I personally think it's great for a number of reasons.

1. The game shouldn't (in my view) be about the DM telling a story and the players just playing parts. It's an improv story. The DM sets the overall plot, but all the actors take it in different directions and in the end we hopefully create soemthing wonderfull.

2. It takes a bit of the burden off of the DM. I want the players to be able to use their abilities and powers in the game. I don't have to do as much in order to make it possible.

3. D&D has always promoted the idea that the DM is impartial, and not on the monster's "side." Sometimes I fall into the trap of being slightly on the monster's side even if only subconciously... You get a bonus when an enemy rushes you? Ohhhh too bad no one rushed you... I start using my knowledge and abilities to think FOR the monsters and not AS the monsters... Which ends up damaging the overall "Story" of the game. When I'm writing a book or a movie, I don't think for the villains. I don't have them avoid bad tactics simply bvexcause as the author I know it will end up allowing the hero to win... They do what they need to for the overall story, and sometimes that means rushing the enemy. (Or leaving them in an insanely complicated trap that no one could possibly escape from, despite the fact that they have a long time to work on it with no one there to prevent it, while they go off to prepair for their plan to come about...)

4e gives me extra tools as a DM to help promote the overall story.

Shrug.
 

It's not a strawman. Posters have been arguing throughout this thread that MANY martial powers don't work unless explained as mystical or inherently magical. When I hit this line above with examples related to heroic acts from fiction the response from the people raising those issues was "well sure, not THOSE powers, but others". He's just asking - what others? It's an honest question.

No, it's not, And neither is your reply. There was no concession that CAGI can be explained in purely mundane terms.

That CAGI it an explained mundanely when fighting humans or orcs is great. But:



This is a disconnect of design intentions. With 3e, the designers saw the need to tackle every corner case and created a lot of subsystems and a lot more corner cases each time. They learned from this with 4e and decided to leave corner cases to be handled by the groups that had a problem with them. It's a corner case, deal with it how you see fit. Disallow the power, modify it so it does basically the same effect, without the forced move (make it so the fighter feigns an injury so his opponents drop their guard just a bit, then he explodes in a burst of speed himself, and shifts himself, attacking everyone in a burst 3).

It is not a corner case. It works on swarms. It works on slimes and oozes. It works on purple mushrooms that don't even have the power to move on their own. It works on grimlocks that neither speak common nor see body language. It works on rabbits that just want to run away. It works on clams. It works on skeleton butlers who have no commands to attack the fighter.

These are not corner cases in D&D. If you were playing a fighter would you be happy if the GM started declaring your powers don't work on any non-humanoid because they don't share your body language?
 

And I don't see anyone who has made that argument. You can knock down a straw man you propped up, but I'd prefer that we discuss one another's points. ExploderWizard made the point against 4E martial exploits quite clearly:

It isn't that powers don't make sense; it's that there's a breakdown of immersion, a barrier between PC and player. That's what makes it seem boardgamey or videogamey to some people.

Come and Get It features a mechanic that allows the player to choose how the bad guys act. That is a big change in player authority from previous versions - there was no resource a player could spend in order to take control of the NPCs in the same way.

Having a player take control of NPCs for a moment means the player cannot be "inside the head" of the PC as easily in earlier editions.
 

It is not a corner case. It works on swarms. It works on slimes and oozes. It works on purple mushrooms that don't even have the power to move on their own. It works on grimlocks that neither speak common nor see body language. It works on rabbits that just want to run away. It works on clams. It works on skeleton butlers who have no commands to attack the fighter.

Swing and a miss. Swarms, slimes and oozes live to attack, drawing them in is not very challenging. It would not work on something that cannot move. The power says they must shift IF POSSIBLE. Something that cannot move cannot shift. Grimlocks engaged in a fight with the PCs are enemies, it works on them just fine. It would not work on rabbits or clams, they are not "enemies in burst that you can see", same with the skeleton butler.
 

I'm just going to say it. High levels of immersion and people who require it were not a priority of 4E. It was a design choice to dump support for that playstyle and those players. They decided that to most players, it just isn't that big of a deal, and I think this was a correct decision. Pleasing the fanatics would have required too many sacrifices to overall gameplay.
 

Remove ads

Top