4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

[The Little Raven]

That is a big change in player authority from previous versions - there was no resource a player could spend in order to take control of the NPCs in the same way.

Dominate Person allowed players to take control of NPCs in a far more long-lasting (1 day/level) and far more customizable way. Saying that Come and Get It gives players the ability to control NPCs in a way they never have before is ignoring the previous versions of the game. But I'm guessing this will be waved away as okay, since "a wizard did it."

 

[phloog]

(SNIP)
So you open your post accusing someone who asks for examples of the magical nature of these martial exploits by claiming that's a strawman argument that you aren't actually making, then close by saying that if the martial powers were just magical like in Earthdawn you wouldn't have any problem with it... Interesting.

Wow...how did you get that from what I typed?...forgive me if I was unclear...I had no problem with it in Earthdawn because the world was entirely magical - - that's what you bought into when you played Earthdawn - -that your campaign would be infused with mystical abilities in all classes. So your little "Interesting" on the end is not really called for --

Just in case, let me try it again...if I'm in the mood to play Earthdawn, I have no problem with any number of freakish things happening with Warrior powers, because the way the setting/stories work is based around the idea that "Everything has a lot of magic in it"...IF I was playing a D&D game set in a world like Earthdawn, I'd support all kinds of freaky mystical seeming powers. Since MY (which is why I'm not getting all the defensiveness) current D&D campaign does not have such high levels of magic in all classes, it is hard for me to use any 4E rules or powers that result in any effects that seem like a fighter has used his magic Frotus powers on the enemy.

So...a third time for emphasis:

World with lots of magic and every creature has a little - - no problem from me with the Earthdawn rules OR the 4e rules

MY campaign as it currently exists...issues.

also, I use extreme corner cases at times, granted...but only because we're talking thresholds of belief and I'm attempting to make a point. I also have a problem with CAGI working without saves or consideration of abilities on normal, highly trained fighters. Note that CAGI doesn't say 'this doesn't work on NPCs higher level than you' - - so if you're fighting a warrior who is more powerful than you, you still fool them, draw them in, etc.

 

[The Little Raven]

Note that CAGI doesn't say 'this doesn't work on NPCs higher level than you' - - so if you're fighting a warrior who is more powerful than you, you still fool them, draw them in, etc.

...fool them, draw them in, then miss them because their Defenses are higher than your attack, so you just gave a higher level, well-trained fighter a free 2-square move to start lumping you on his turn.

 

[Fifth Element]

...fool them, draw them in, then miss them because their Defenses are higher than your attack, so you just gave a higher level, well-trained fighter a free 2-square move to start lumping you on his turn.

Indeed. It doesn't have to be the same exact description every time. The higher-level fighter smirks, thanks you for the free movement, and then smashes you in the face.

 

[phloog]

D&D 4e (above all things in my opinion) seems to be about all players involved telling a communal story of some type. The story of your campaign.

A power like come and get it isn't about your character forcing his opponents to do anything. It's about the player placing some input into the overall story.

The player getting to say:

1. "At this point in the fight scene, my character is rushed by his enemy."
SNIP.

If I combine your thoughts with the DM option to (perhaps FREQUENTLY) disallow the power, or allow NPC #32 to ignore it, then it becomes workable. My issue is just primarily that I am opposed to 'zapping' PCs powers at the risk of making something they've 'spent' a power slot on less valuable than a different choice.

The better option for me, if I were ever to run 4E again, would be to simply remove CAGI, but I'm not sure if that 'nerfs' fighters entirely or not.

 

[phloog]

Dominate Person allowed players to take control of NPCs in a far more long-lasting (1 day/level) and far more customizable way. Saying that Come and Get It gives players the ability to control NPCs in a way they never have before is ignoring the previous versions of the game. But I'm guessing this will be waved away as okay, since "a wizard did it."

Dominate Person, IIRC, allowed a saving throw...it also did not work on the mindless. So is it really waving it away to say that a power that in the past allowed a save, was influenced by the nature and statistics of the foe, AND was described as magic is not comparable to a power that ignores all aspects of the foe and is somehow expected to be seen as NOT magical?

I don't disagree that players could have 'power' over NPCs before, but typically it WAS NOT Mundane (=non-magical), or it involved mechanics of the mundane ("How do I control his movement? I grapple him and pull him over here, that's how!")

 

[mmadsen]

Dominate Person allowed players to take control of NPCs in a far more long-lasting (1 day/level) and far more customizable way. Saying that Come and Get It gives players the ability to control NPCs in a way they never have before is ignoring the previous versions of the game. But I'm guessing this will be waved away as okay, since "a wizard did it."

Wow. Just wow.

Of course it's going to be "waved way as okay, since a wizard did it," because it makes perfect sense -- in the game world -- that a wizard with a mind-control spell would mind-control someone.

 

[Scribble]

If I combine your thoughts with the DM option to (perhaps FREQUENTLY) disallow the power, or allow NPC #32 to ignore it, then it becomes workable. My issue is just primarily that I am opposed to 'zapping' PCs powers at the risk of making something they've 'spent' a power slot on less valuable than a different choice.

The better option for me, if I were ever to run 4E again, would be to simply remove CAGI, but I'm not sure if that 'nerfs' fighters entirely or not.

Shrug... The game talks about using common sense at times. it's your game do whatever makes the most fun for yourself and your group, only you know what that is, not me or the rules or the designers of the rules.

Here are some example of how I see CAGI playing out:

1. Average Warrior vrs a Foe

PC: (I use CAGI) "Maglor lowers his blade slightly shifting his body as if he has slipped..." (Roll roll roll A Hit!)

DM: The Goblin smirks seeing the opportunity. It steps forward blade drawn hoping to end this fight perhaps sooner then he'd planend...

PC: "Maglor smiles as the goblin takes the bait... Straightening back into fighting for he swings his weapon into the unsuspecting goblin..."

Or

Roll roll roll A Miss!)

The goblin smirks seeing the opportunity. "I'm wise to your trickses human! But thank you for lowering your defenses!"

2. Poor farm boy vrs trained warrior

PC (I use CAGI) Johan holds the sword in his hand the tip swaying from side to side his body shaking in terror... (Roll roll roll A hit!)

DM: The warrior smirks knowing he has nothing to fear from such a small boy... Stepping forward he says "You're brave boy, but unfortunately for you bravery will not keep you alive much..." Suddenly you see the warrior wince, as he slips on some blood falling against the blade in Johans hands...

or (Roll roll roll a Miss!)

DM: The warrior smirks knowing he has nothing to fear from such a small boy. Stepping forward he says: "You're brave boy, but unfortunately for you bravery will not keep you alive Much longer..."

PC: Terror grips Johans heart... He's no match for this warrior...

3. Crazy Kung Fu/Jedi Style

(I use CAGI) Wo-Pan smirks, lowering his blade and motioning for his enemy to come to him... (Roll roll rolll a Hit!)

DM: The goblin tries to resist, but is no match for your warrior magic... he steps forward at your call feeling your blade slash into his body...

or (Roll roll roll a Miss!)

DM: The goblin smiles... "Foolish warrior,... did you think I was a petty commoner open to your trickery??? But I will take this opportunity you've given me..."

 

[Herschel]

I think there are a lot of issues with 4e (healing, inorganic feel, etc., ad nauseum) but I like it much better than that PoS 3e rules overload. Each edition has issues (as covered in the other thread) but why does criticizing mean to some that it's a black/white (love/hate) relationship?

Don't get me worng, I like a good internet rant as well as the next person, maybe more. Some of this stuff is beyond silly though.

 

[phloog]

Wow. Just wow.

Of course it's going to be "waved way as okay, since a wizard did it," because it makes perfect sense -- in the game world -- that a wizard with a mind-control spell would mind-control someone.

Generally speaking, I've noticed that on the internet when someone attempts to preempt the counterpoint in their own post, that counterpoint is often very reasonable, which is why the attempt to block it in advance is made. That seems to be the case here.