The New 4th Edition God-Killing Rules

[justanobody]

He is level 33, and yes, that means he wields as much power as some gods. Still, as I understand it, even though worshipped, he is not a god in 4e. He would like to though.

Raven Queen is a 4e thing, and in short:

OK so with a 2 level adjustment he should hold the same power range as Tiamat....

He was viewed as a god for all intents in the past, so this new Raven Queen thing just means someone new added in the place he was viewed to hold prior....

So 4th removed his ambiguity of power and rank.

That just means then there is only one deity with stats pretty much and even harder to decide how to make other deities and more reason like mentioned by another to stat the gods for the PHB deities, so that Orcus could have the PCs fight the Raven Queen, or use them to fight someone else to distract her, or any other number of reasons he or another higher power being could have the PCs go after a god.

And since he is aiming for ALL the gods, then he could coerce the PCs into aiming for any of them as with a demigod PC may just want to side with him or dethrone a god of their own to round out the characters "life" in the game.

Thanks for that bit. Though I would have rather had the Bitch Queen over the Raven Queen.

 

[JackSmithIV]

WoTC,

Please, please do up the Raven Queen. You did Orcus and explained how the two have a powerful antipathy for each other as well as Orcus' goal of taking the Raven Queen's place. It would be nice to get the other side of the issue.

Plus I can totally see a plot where Orcus manipulates some unsuspecting PCs into slaying the Raven Queen and the Pcs have to set things right (and was it part of her plan all along?).

I totally bet Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead has Raven Queen stats (I'll even go a step futher and say Vecna, too).

 

[Sir Brennen]

Regarding the "why do the gods wait around for mortals to slay the bad guys" thing... in addition to the excellent reasons given, there's another common trope which could be used: prophecy. Even with a FR-like epic level character density in a campaign, it's only the Five from the Western Marches Who Slew the Immortal Gad at the Gates of Iron during the Return of the Herald's Comet that can bring down the God of Things Nasty and Damp. Coincidentally, the PCs just happen to have beat the tar out of Gad recently while vacationing at the Gates of Iron and there was a strange comet in the sky...

It could be that even gods can only truly kill each other under special circumstances, or have to undertake quests themselves to accomplish such things. Even the most powerful deities are servants of Destiny. Many are awed, humbled or jealous that fate often grants fearful power into the hands of mere mortals...

 

[M.L. Martin]

I totally bet Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead has Raven Queen stats (I'll even go a step futher and say Vecna, too).

The catalog blurb confirms Vecna, as well as Acererak. Rumors from the WotC forums say Strahd's in there too, and after seeing Cyan in the Draconomicon, I'll bet we get Lord Soth.

 

[The Little Raven]

Then the Princes of the Abyss are all gods.

No. Unless they are listed as gods, they are not gods. The PHB has a list of gods (as does the FRCG), and none of those Demon Princes are on that list.

worshiped = deity.

I could worship a shoe, but that wouldn't make it a deity. It takes more than some people worshipping you to make you a deity. It takes divine essence, which primordials and their Johnny-Come-Lately counterparts, the Demon Princes, lack.

But that doesn't explain why he holds the same level as Tiamat, a goddess.

He's 2 levels lower than Tiamat, first off. Secondly, even if he was level 35 like she is, he still isn't a deity, because there's a lot more to her deity status (Discorporation, for one) than just being high level.

 

[DandD]

Didn't gods in 3rd edition have salient abilities which distinguished them from other super-high-level monsters, or even super-high level adventurers?

So, what's the problem again which the anti-4th edition crowd has?

 

[Sir Brennen]

Didn't gods in 3rd edition have salient abilities which distinguished them from other super-high-level monsters, or even super-high level adventurers?

So, what's the problem again which the anti-4th edition crowd has?

Deities in 3.x had minimum 20 HD (usually type Outsider), 30 to 50 character levels, and Divine Ranks as the stat which made them deities. Salient abilities are just a function of having Divine Ranks. 3.x deities were also an arbitrary, number-crunching, statistical mess...

 

[Shemeska]

Didn't gods in 3rd edition have salient abilities which distinguished them from other super-high-level monsters, or even super-high level adventurers?

So, what's the problem again which the anti-4th edition crowd has?

I didn't care for either the 3.x version or the 4e take. They both treat things as big monsters to kill, and 3.x by design sticks archfiends and planar lords as automatically lesser than gods, and 4e just has them as officially approved things for heroes to kill and gods seemingly sitting in the 'no no you can't fight Pelor' catagory of non-sanctioned monster.

Neither situation is ideal.

 

[JackSmithIV]

I didn't care for either the 3.x version or the 4e take. They both treat things as big monsters to kill, and 3.x by design sticks archfiends and planar lords as automatically lesser than gods, and 4e just has them as officially approved things for heroes to kill and gods seemingly sitting in the 'no no you can't fight Pelor' catagory of non-sanctioned monster.

Neither situation is ideal.

See the entire arguement around the idea that Wizards has a company, and therefor will release supplements that appeal to the majority of players. The majority of players want to kill Vecna much more than Pelor. And they want to kill Tiamat for Bahamut, not the other way around. They have limited resources, and they're not trying to "officially approve anything". You're still allowed to spend an hour or so putting together a stat block for a final epic battle with Kord if you like. They've even provided an entire chapter to monster design, and now you have an example of what a god is like.

Until then, they've made a choice that they believe appeals to the majority of players, restricting those who want to make a different choice in no way.

 

[DandD]

Well, it seems to be better than the 2nd edition approach, where god-killing was relegated to NPCs, because nobody knew what stats the gods would or should have at all, I guess.

Did 1st edition have stats for gods?
Perhaps one could have used whatever book dealed with divinities in 1st edition (probably Faiths and Powers, or Deities and Demigods, if the gods do have stats there at all) and simply take the stats from there for his party when playing some kind of epic 2nd edition-campaign back then.
According to many D&D-veterans here on this message board, there wasn't such a big difference between 1st and 2nd edition appearently.

Also, did 2nd edition actually have official rules for epic-level games anyway, or was it limited to a level cap (probably different for each class, or perhaps not)?