4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

[mmadsen]

What is the fighter actually doing? That's up for the group to decide. (The player decides on an description the group can accept.) The fighter may or may not be compelling them to attack.

Let me reiterate my question then.

Just what exactly is the fighter doing? If it's fundamentally different each time -- and it seems like it would have to be -- then what does it mean for a character to have come and get it on his character sheet? Is there any in-game explanation? Or is it just a board-game power?

 

[Campbell]

Let me reiterate my question then.

Just what exactly is the fighter doing? If it's fundamentally different each time -- and it seems like it would have to be -- then what does it mean for a character to have come and get it on his character sheet? Is there any in-game explanation? Or is it just a board-game power?

That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is to view the power is a discrete piece of narrative control related to the character's thematic underpinnings. It's on the character sheet to enable the player to help shape his character's narrative. That perspective will probably not be an improvement if your game play agenda is bound to direct immersion into the game's setting, but some of us consider the fact that 4e can be played in this manner a boon.

 

[mmadsen]

Another way to look at it is to view the power is a discrete piece of narrative control related to the character's thematic underpinnings.

What thematic underpinnings would come and get it exemplify?

 

[Campbell]

What thematic underpinnings would come and get it exemplify?

It exemplifies that as a fighter your place is directly in the chaos of battle and it also reflects your ability to direct the flow of a battle towards you.

I will admit that there are times when powers like Come And Get It do not necessarily make sense within the confines of the narrative. I believe in those cases it falls upon the player to carefully consider their use of the narrative power the system has granted them.

MMadsen,

I get the impression that you are skeptical of the claim that 4e can be approached from a narrative perspective. Do you think I'm being disingenuous ?

 

[Imaro]

Personally, I think anything can be justified as "narrative" when there are no tropes or trappings to use as a basis for the narrative... it's like one of those stories a 6 yr old tells you where things happen often illogically, without a basis... it's narrative certainly, but it doesn't make sense that "5 robots show up at the castle of Lord Ven and shoot him with lasers."... that I think is the problem with D&D 4e and the narrative excuse.

What exactly are the trappings and tropes of D&D... there are none, especially in the vaguely defined 4e PoL setting. As an example, of this done right look at the Angel rpg. The series shows us that the narrative of an Angel character, especially one whose sub-par (compared to Slayers, vampires with souls, Wiccans on magic speed and cyborgs) often involves them sliding by or even getting one up on a more powerful character through sheer luck, circumstance, etc. Thus Drama points make sense in an Angel rpg narrative sense. Not to mention they take the time to explain this within the corebook.

Now tell me what is the narrative basis for D&D? It's all over the place, and a vague setting doesn't help in creating a narrative game...at least so far as what are the narrative tropes. For some playing D&D their characters narrative should be like Elric, Conan, Fafhrd and Grey Mouser...for others Aragorn and Arwyn...for others Naruto, Kenshin and Jubei.

But D&D doesn't take the effort to let you know the basis for it's narrative play and thus why I believe it is gamist in the sense that these really are powers not built around either simulationist or narrative concerns...but around only the game aspect. Just because you can squint and twist your head just so... to make it look narrativist, doesn't mean it is.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Personally, I think anything can be justified as "narrative" when there are no tropes or trappings to use as a basis for the narrative... it's like one of those stories a 6 yr old tells you where things happen often illogically, without a basis... it's narrative certainly, but it doesn't make sense that "5 robots show up at the castle of Lord Ven and shoot him with lasers."... that I think is the problem with D&D 4e and the narrative excuse.

What exactly are the trappings and tropes of D&D... there are none, especially in the vaguely defined 4e PoL setting. As an example, of this done right look at the Angel rpg. The series shows us that the narrative of an Angel character, especially one whose sub-par (compared to Slayers, vampires with souls, Wiccans on magic speed and cyborgs) often involves them sliding by or even getting one up on a more powerful character through sheer luck, circumstance, etc. Thus Drama points make sense in an Angel rpg narrative sense. Not to mention they take the time to explain this within the corebook.

Now tell me what is the narrative basis for D&D? It's all over the place, and a vague setting doesn't help in creating a narrative game...at least so far as what are the narrative tropes. For some playing D&D their characters narrative should be like Elric, Conan, Fafhrd and Grey Mouser...for others Aragorn and Arwyn...for others Naruto, Kenshin and Jubei.

But D&D doesn't take the effort to let you know the basis for it's narrative play and thus why I believe it is gamist in the sense that these really are powers not built around either simulationist or narrative concerns...but around only the game aspect. Just because you can squint and twist your head just so... to make it look narrativist, doesn't mean it is.

I wouldn't call 4E a narrativist game. If any edition of D&D could be called more narrativist, I would give that to 2E. 4E is a gamist RPG 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. What 4E does do is to use narrative justification for its gamist mechanics, and to downplay and in some cases outright ignore any semblance of simulationism. In other words, it is narrativist where it isn't simulationist.

 

[pawsplay]

D&D 4e is pretty gamist, as narration and simulation pretty much piggyback on the game engine. Or to use a different way of looking at games, 4e is decision first, narration second. The 4e immersion experience is definitely skewed toward a visual, event-driven style of immersion.

 

[Umbran]

I can accept the possibility. I am just pointing out that the existance and posting habits of willfully obtuse madmen(and we have some) are generally the reason you see some of the pro-4E responses that you see.

And the existence and posting habits of willfully rude people is why we have to have moderators. After a warning, even, and while talking about how nobody is innocent. The irony. *sigh*

Congrats - you've just gotten banned from your own thread.

I would recommend that anyone trying to point fingers darn well ought to make sure their own hands are clean. I will further recommend that everyone be on their best behavior in this thread from this point on. Do not become part of the reason we cannot have nice things.

 

[Doug McCrae]

What exactly are the trappings and tropes of D&D...

Races, classes and monsters principally from Lord of the Rings with extra bits from all over - mythology and fantasy plus some sci fi and comic books - but the setting is Vance's Dying Earth. Which is pure PoL, incidentally, though the 3rd and 4th books, which were published after OD&D, present a safer world than the first two. In the Gygaxian era the PCs had pulp-y money grubbing motivation but these days they're more heroic (and have been since late 1e/2e).

The rules are inspired by Chainmail, earlier editions, other roleplaying games, D&D minis and about 0.01% come from videogames, which makes people very angry.

 

[doctorhook]

Man, I'm probably the only person in the community who hasn't posted here yet, and after having skipped straight from page 1 to page 23, it's obvious that this isn't really the same discussion it began as. But since I feel left out, I'll jump right into it:

4E! *flamebait* Previous editions! *flamebait* Your fault! *flamebait*