D'karr
Adventurer
Interestingly enough we've been playing the game with just the 3 "core" books and it feels rather complete for use.
The only thing that seems lacking is rituals.
So even that is a matter of perspective.
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Pramas: Does 4E have staying power?
- Thread starter TerraDave
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Interestingly enough we've been playing the game with just the 3 "core" books and it feels rather complete for use.
The only thing that seems lacking is rituals.
So even that is a matter of perspective.
Darkwolf71
First Post
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
This is what stopped me from buying Planescape back in the day, and it is a factor in my not adopting 4E yet. Not the biggest one, since I'm perfectly capable of culling the herd from a book perspective, but its a consideration.
Imaro
Legend
“Feels” complete compared to what? If your DM (or if you are the DM) is adding or reskinning stuff in the game such as potions, magic items, rituals, new monsters, etc…then that really doesn’t speak to the completeness of the game. I’ll be honest it doesn’t “feel” or seem complete to me when I compare it to having spent an equal amount of money on other games (Including the 3.5 core set)… in other words, IMHO, it is not $104.85 complete, in any way shape or form. But then opinions differ, YMMV and all that.
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Yeah, but if you followed the thread this information spill creates a bit of confusion to the fans.
What we get out of this:
1)Amazon becomes the station point of trade for D&D
or
2)4e is not performing great, possibly even bellow average
So which one do you think is it? Honestly and as objectively as possible
thecasualoblivion
First Post
Lets compare to games I'm most familiar with:
1. Vampire: the Requiem--There are five Vampire clans, and the differences are cosmetic more than anything, combined with five political factions. You have a point buy system to customize characters, but between class, race, abilities, feats, skills, powers, items, and paragon/epic there is more room to customize 4E.
2. 3E D&D. In 3E core there are 11 classes to 4E's 8. Both editions have race, class, abilities, skills, feats, powers/spells, items, and Paragon/Epic. lets look at a few:
Race--4E has one more race than 3E in the PHB, for what that's worth. 4E's races tend to remain relevant throughout the entire game where 3E's fade away after the first few levels. 4E has racial feats to specialize further in your race. The monster manuals of both editions have monster races, but I would heavily argue that dropping LA and ECL gives 4E more bang for the buck. Advantage: 4E
Class--4E has eight classes to 3E's eleven. In terms of choices though, 4E's eight classes all give a substantial amount of options, while in 3E it is split between Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Sorcerer getting piles of options and Barbarian, Fighter(core feats do little to nothing--Fighter needs his splats), Monk, Paladin, Ranger and Rogue getting little to no options. In addition, balance issues make many 3E classes(particularly the Monk, but including Bard, Fighter, Paladin and Ranger) unattractive choices in core only. Overall, 3E has incredibly deep options along four paths(Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard/Sorcerer sharing the same path), and six other classes who don't go far beyond "pick a class". 4E on the other hand takes the options available for the Spellcasters and splits them between eight classes. Each class gets less than a 3E spellcasting class, and the options are spread over the entire. In addition, 4E has removed the bad choices, so there is more bang for the buck in the available choices. While there may be less powers/rituals than there were 3E spells, when you remove the stupid choices 4E comes out at least equal. Advantage: Push
Multiclassing--3E had the ability to choose any class to gain a level in, but this didn't exactly work well in practice(without prestige classes). Doing anything less than taking full levels in a spellcasting class gimped your character, and in core good results tended to be limited to adding Barbarian, Fighter and to a lesser extent Ranger levels to nonspellcasting classes. In 4E, multiclassing through feats and Paragon Paths doesn't promise as much as 3E did, but it works. Some classes have more synergy with ability scores, but you can make a viable character out of any two of the eight classes in the PHB. Advantage: 4E
thecasualoblivion
First Post
Yeah, but if you followed the thread this information spill creates a bit of confusion to the fans.
What we get out of this:
1)Amazon becomes the station point of trade for D&D
or
2)4e is not performing great, possibly even bellow average
So which one do you think is it? Honestly and as objectively as possible
1)Amazon becomes the station point of trade for D&D
Buying the core 3 for $61(its now $68) with free shipping instead of $105 plus tax is difficult to ignore. Further 4E material tends to be sold with a 30% or so discount. Again, hard to ignore.
jgbrowning
Hero
Yeah, but if you followed the thread this information spill creates a bit of confusion to the fans.
What we get out of this:
1)Amazon becomes the station point of trade for D&D
or
2)4e is not performing great, possibly even bellow average
So which one do you think is it? Honestly and as objectively as possible
As politely as I can be, I don't say in public or in any permanent medium. Fans don't need to hear from me about any products other than Expeditious Retreat Press products. I only spoke up here because I don't think Chris deserves any disparagement.
Fans need to distance themselves from caring about sales numbers and just play what they like. There's nothing better about playing a well-selling game because it sells well, just like there's nothing better about playing an indie game just because it's indie.
joe b.
Darkwolf71
First Post
1) The problem with the Amazon angle is that 3.5 books were also being sold online, it's not as if 4e created this side effect of the virtual market place. There very well could be 'more' folks buying online, but I doubt if it is more by a signifigant amount.
OTOH
2) Not as well as expected does not equate to 'below average' or even 'not great', neccissarily.
thecasualoblivion
First Post
While 3E books were sold on Amazon, there was nothing that could compare to the big "event" of selling preorders for the 4E core set for $61.
