Making adjustments to Rituals?

[weem]

My brother is running a campaign (starting soon) and the players (there's 7) have been discussing Rituals.

There was a post here (ENW) somewhere (I can't find it for the life of me) where someone discussed their idea for making Rituals easier/faster to use - their idea involved allowing players to put in the time and money up front and then allowing them to cast those prepared rituals as a standard action (as I recall it, but I could be missing some details).

Personally, I don't think they need to be changed (at least for my games), but I was curious about how other people are adjusting them (those who are adjusting them anyway).

Here was (basically) his argument for changing how they work...

Ritual casting in its current form is retarded in nearly every way. Essentially it's the non-combat spells from 3e, only now they take so long to cast that most of the situational ones are useless. I mean who is going to burn 10 gold and 10 minutes to comprehend a language someone is currently speaking to them? And if they have to, how will that not break flow like a big retarded dam?

Here are some suggestions from him...

Maybe the cost for rituals should be higher, but only as a one time fee to learn them and inscribe them in the book, and that perhaps some of those cheap, low level rituals should have their casting times drastically reduced, such that they are measured in turns or rounds rather than minutes. Perhaps ritual casters will memorize the rituals or have to spend a healing surge in order to cast a ritual spell, so that they're not free, but they're not impractical.

-- and --

Prepare Rituals
By taking this feat, the caster enables him/herself to prepare a certain number of rituals (Determined as a function his level or his modifier or something) by spending the ritual's casting time preparing at the beginning of the day (so if a ritual takes 10 minutes to cast, you'd spend 10 minutes preparing at the beginning of the day). Such preparation would allow the caster to cast a prepared ritual as a standard action later in the day.

Memorize Ritual [Name]
This feat would be selected for a single specific ritual that takes less than 10 minutes to cast normally. By taking this feat, the character would be able to use the ritual as a standard (or full round, I'm flexible) action by spending a healing surge, along with any healing surges the ritual normally requires. (I.e. Knock would require 2 healing surges to invoke).

Note that with both of these I think that they should only be usable on rituals that take 10 minutes or less to cast.

So basically...

1/ If you have made some changes to the way Rituals work, what have they been and why did you make them?

2/ Do you have any suggestions for someone looking for the changes he requested above (other than play another system)?


Thanks,

 

[James McMurray]

I mean who is going to burn 10 gold and 10 minutes to comprehend a language someone is currently speaking to them?

Someone who needs to speak to someone else but doesn't know the language? Or has a book they can't read?

And if they have to, how will that not break flow like a big retarded dam?

How could signing "I don't understand" and casting a ritual going it "break flow" any more than just not being able to understand someone? The first takes a few seconds of real time to get the adventure back on track. The second takes less time, but leaves you stuck where you were at.

Personally, I don't see a need to change rituals like that, and would be hesitant to do so. Comprehend Languages isn't much, but there are some rituals whose use in combat may be problematic.

 

[DracoSuave]

Not to mention, the existance of rituals is a commonly known thing, so if you're talking to someone, he pantomimes his confusion and talks to me in a language I don't understand, and starts performing some juju on himself, I might go 'Oh, he's probably trying to understand me. I'll wait a couple minutes. This is important.'

 

[weem]

Yea, like I said they don't need changing for my games - I'm good as they are - but I was trying to give him some options for his game as he addresses some adjustments his players may like to see.

So with that said, you (like myself) would not change them - but if you had to, would you have any suggestions on what to try?

One of the things I was thinking of would be to allow the swapping of a power (a Daily maybe?) for a Ritual that could be used as a standard action, or something along those lines.

Even if it is something that may not be worth doing, that's fine, I'm just looking for options for his game that won't break the game (as best as we could tell initially)

 

[Lacyon]

A lot of the rituals have casting time and component restrictions specifically so that they won't (automatically) overshadow abilities people might otherwise invest feats/powers/skills in.

With that in mind, powers that don't have combat implications anyway* can probably have their casting times reduced without much trouble, and powers that don't obsolete skills, powers, or feats can probably have their costs reduced without much trouble.

*If someone does come up with a combat application for Comprehend Languages, they deserve all the awesome you can pour on them.

 

[timbannock]

A lot of the rituals have casting time and component restrictions specifically so that they won't (automatically) overshadow abilities people might otherwise invest feats/powers/skills in.

With that in mind, powers that don't have combat implications anyway* can probably have their casting times reduced without much trouble, and powers that don't obsolete skills, powers, or feats can probably have their costs reduced without much trouble.

*If someone does come up with a combat application for Comprehend Languages, they deserve all the awesome you can pour on them.

Combat application:

Person A speaks to Person B. B pantomimes confusion, and begins casting juju on himself. Person A, knowing its probably a ritual like Comprehend Languages, stands by and waits.

Person B finishes casting, and says -- in Person A's language -- "I just pw1ned your Mom!" Person A has successfully been taunted, and enters a blind rage to kill person B, not realizing that a few yards away, Person B's friendly neighborhood rogue is about to yell "Pow! Schneak Attack!" and kill Person A.

It's a stretch, but does that count for some awesome-pouring goodness?

 

[Lacyon]

It's a stretch, but does that count for some awesome-pouring goodness?

Works for me

 

[Ed-Zero]

Here's a house rule that I like for rituals:

-In 4e, rituals do not take 10 minutes to cast, they take 30 seconds/level:
1st level: 30 seconds
2nd: 1 min
3rd: 1 min 30 seconds
4th: 2 min
5th: 2 min 30 seconds
6th: 3 min
7th: 3 min 30 seconds
8th: 4 min
9th: 4 min 30 seconds
10th: 5 min
11th: 5 min 30 seconds
12th: 6 min
13th: 6 min 30 seconds
14th: 7 min
15th: 7 min 30 seconds
16th: 8 min
17th: 8 min 30 seconds
18th: 9 min
19th: 9 min 30 seconds
20th: 10 min (all levels after this max out at 10 min)

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Here's a house rule that I like for rituals:

-In 4e, rituals do not take 10 minutes to cast, they take 30 seconds/level:
1st level: 30 seconds
2nd: 1 min
3rd: 1 min 30 seconds
4th: 2 min
5th: 2 min 30 seconds
6th: 3 min
7th: 3 min 30 seconds
8th: 4 min
9th: 4 min 30 seconds
10th: 5 min
11th: 5 min 30 seconds
12th: 6 min
13th: 6 min 30 seconds
14th: 7 min
15th: 7 min 30 seconds
16th: 8 min
17th: 8 min 30 seconds
18th: 9 min
19th: 9 min 30 seconds
20th: 10 min (all levels after this max out at 10 min)

Well, according to your rules then, a PC could cast Raise Dead in 4 minutes. That seems a bit fast for such a powerful ritual. Especially since that means they can essentially do it while the rest of the party takes a short rest in the dungeon where their friend died. 4 minutes later, he's back on his feet and ready to go!

With some of the minor rituals, I guess I could see something like this working...but for the major ones with multi-hour cast times? There's usually a reason for them having those multi-hour cast times.

 

[Ed-Zero]

Well, according to your rules then, a PC could cast Raise Dead in 4 minutes. That seems a bit fast for such a powerful ritual. Especially since that means they can essentially do it while the rest of the party takes a short rest in the dungeon where their friend died. 4 minutes later, he's back on his feet and ready to go!

With some of the minor rituals, I guess I could see something like this working...but for the major ones with multi-hour cast times? There's usually a reason for them having those multi-hour cast times.

I guess people don't mind that it was 1 minute in 3.5 but now that the house rule makes it 4 minutes it's all of a sudden "too fast"? Pff...