Dragon 370 - Invoker Preview

[gribble]

Interesting tidbit from a WotC staff blog:

So is the wizard underpowered compared to the invoker? Perhaps, but I believe that’s something we acknowledge and are taking steps to fix in Arcane Power. No, this isn’t power creep. I think there’s a general opinion that the wizard needs a little bump to bring it even with the other classes, and with hope, you’ll see that in the upcoming months.

I think that confirms that we'll be seeing stuff in Arcane Power which ramps up the Wizard's at-wills (surely they wouldn't ramp up the encounter/daily powers...).

 

[Felon]

Interesting tidbit from a WotC staff blog:


I think that confirms that we'll be seeing stuff in Arcane Power which ramps up the Wizard's at-wills (surely they wouldn't ramp up the encounter/daily powers...).

Yeah, it's not power creep. It's a power...bump. Bumping is very distinct from creeping.

I kid, I kid. Let's wait and see.

 

[Rechan]

[
I'm surprised many folks in this thread expressed surprise that the invoker gets chainmail. It seems to be a staple of class design that if you don't have Dex or Int as your numero uno stat, you're likely to get medium armor. The couple of exceptions that spring to mind--warlock and swordmage--use Int as a secondary stat, and then get some defense boost as a patch.

Druid.

Druid gets hide. And then a concession ability that boosts AC.

Also, Swordmages have Int as their primary, not secondary.

 

[Felon]

Druid.

Druid gets hide. And then a concession ability that boosts AC.

Don't have DDI, but it fits the formula. Rangers have hide, but they also use Dex, so no consolation prize for them.

Also, Swordmages have Int as their primary, not secondary.

Don't they switch-hit, like a warlock with Cha and Con? I guess I'll go look them up. So far, it looks most classes are set to have roughly similar AC's, shields notwithstanding.

 

[Rechan]

From WotC's staff blog:

I am not a cleric-playing person. I don’t like being devoted to one deity. I’m probably afraid of commitment. That is why I like the invoker. I fought hard for a few lines in PH2. The lines that say, “More than most other divine characters, invokers offer prayers to and call on favors from the entire pantheon, for all the gods, whatever their alignments, fought together against the primordials.” With this feature, I feel the invoker’s flavor really comes out. I frequently make up flavor text on the spot, changing what my prayers appear to do. Recently, we were fighting Firbolgs, so I did a Religion check, found out they worshiped Sehanine, and then called upon that deity for aid. When crossing the ocean, I invoke the name of Melora, and suddenly my binding invocation of chains power becomes a wave of water and kelp that spills across that battlefield, slowing my enemies.

I find it interesting that the same fluff can excite one person, and turn the other off.

For instance, this fluff turns me off really hard. If an Invoker really holds no allegiance to any God, and can just ask any deity for help, then it makes me wonder who would ever endow Invokers with their power to begin with. Why would you give someone access to divine power if they're not going to pray to you? What does a God get out of giving an Invoker a piece of divinity if the Invoker goes "Thanks! Now, watch as I go give a prayer to the deity you have sworn as your nemesis!" And why would a God grant that prayer, when the Invoker owes him jack?

The Invoker comes off as a spell begger, a religious hobo with no allegiances, mooching off the scraps of the Gods' pity. Which may make an intriguing concept for a character, but not, imho, a whole class around. I could see it if the Invoker was asking lower-rung beings (Saints, Demon princes, Angels, Exarchs/Demi-Gods, Ancestors/Legendary Heroes), or Spirits (even though that is likely the Shaman's bag), or stealing power from esoteric sources or finding loopholes in the Divine power (the Archivist's bag), but not directly asking the Gods.

It feels utterly lacking in focus, from a character perspective. There's also no real repercussions. So what, the Invoker violates 3 deity's religious tenants; who's going to punish him? No one, because he answers to no particular deity. I would expect Corellan to get fairly pissy if he found out an Invoker was asking him to do a favor by answering a prayer, and then that same Invoker turns around several seconds later and asks Lolth for the same.

And while you could take the Invoker and call him an Archivist, there is that lack of knowledge powers in there that have the same feel.

 

[Alikar]

Interesting tidbit from a WotC staff blog:

I think that confirms that we'll be seeing stuff in Arcane Power which ramps up the Wizard's at-wills (surely they wouldn't ramp up the encounter/daily powers...).

I wonder if they will simply print update at wills in Arcane Power. It would be easy for future printings of the PHB to contain an update, and putting it in Arcane Power shouldn't take too much room. Not to mention when they release the power cards it will be easy to simply have the update on their. I'd rather see that, then having them stay the same.

 

[Sir Brennen]

For instance, this fluff turns me off really hard. If an Invoker really holds no allegiance to any God, and can just ask any deity for help, then it makes me wonder who would ever endow Invokers with their power to begin with. Why would you give someone access to divine power if they're not going to pray to you? What does a God get out of giving an Invoker a piece of divinity if the Invoker goes "Thanks! Now, watch as I go give a prayer to the deity you have sworn as your nemesis!" And why would a God grant that prayer, when the Invoker owes him jack?

On the other hand, priests of many historical religions did exactly the same thing: taught reverence of the entire pantheon, not an individual deity. So they offered up prayers to whatever god best suited the situation. Even the common man did this in day-to-day life. Religion was not about worship of a particular god among many; that's just the usual D&D model.

So it isn't that hard to envision a fantasy religion with an religious figure that draws power from the existence of the deities in general rather than a specific god.

One could almost think of it more like a warlock's pact, but with the whole pantheon rather than an individual patron. Such pacts where created when the gods fought the Primordials, and they are still required to honor the pact.

 

[Lacyon]

From WotC's staff blog:
I find it interesting that the same fluff can excite one person, and turn the other off.

For instance, this fluff turns me off really hard. If an Invoker really holds no allegiance to any God, and can just ask any deity for help, then it makes me wonder who would ever endow Invokers with their power to begin with. Why would you give someone access to divine power if they're not going to pray to you? What does a God get out of giving an Invoker a piece of divinity if the Invoker goes "Thanks! Now, watch as I go give a prayer to the deity you have sworn as your nemesis!" And why would a God grant that prayer, when the Invoker owes him jack?

Watch Cleric work.

 

[Rechan]

On the other hand, priests of many historical religions did exactly the same thing: taught reverence of the entire pantheon, not an individual deity. So they offered up prayers to whatever god best suited the situation. Even the common man did this in day-to-day life. Religion was not about worship of a particular god among many; that's just the usual D&D model.

In many pantheons though, the deity roster is rather small. Norse, Egyptian, etc; you had maybe what, 8-10 gods?

In D&D, you can have a metric buttload.

Worshiping a small pantheon, I can understand. Eberron does this with the Soverign Host (a pantheon of 6 deities). But not a smorgusboard of 'any god that wants to step up'. Especially when you have the mortal enemy situation (see: Corellan and Lolth).

 

[TwinBahamut]

From WotC's staff blog:
I find it interesting that the same fluff can excite one person, and turn the other off.

For instance, this fluff turns me off really hard. If an Invoker really holds no allegiance to any God, and can just ask any deity for help, then it makes me wonder who would ever endow Invokers with their power to begin with. Why would you give someone access to divine power if they're not going to pray to you? What does a God get out of giving an Invoker a piece of divinity if the Invoker goes "Thanks! Now, watch as I go give a prayer to the deity you have sworn as your nemesis!" And why would a God grant that prayer, when the Invoker owes him jack?

The Invoker comes off as a spell begger, a religious hobo with no allegiances, mooching off the scraps of the Gods' pity. Which may make an intriguing concept for a character, but not, imho, a whole class around. I could see it if the Invoker was asking lower-rung beings (Saints, Demon princes, Angels, Exarchs/Demi-Gods, Ancestors/Legendary Heroes), or Spirits (even though that is likely the Shaman's bag), or stealing power from esoteric sources or finding loopholes in the Divine power (the Archivist's bag), but not directly asking the Gods.

It feels utterly lacking in focus, from a character perspective. There's also no real repercussions. So what, the Invoker violates 3 deity's religious tenants; who's going to punish him? No one, because he answers to no particular deity. I would expect Corellan to get fairly pissy if he found out an Invoker was asking him to do a favor by answering a prayer, and then that same Invoker turns around several seconds later and asks Lolth for the same.

And while you could take the Invoker and call him an Archivist, there is that lack of knowledge powers in there that have the same feel.

Honestly, considering that the default assumption of D&D is that religion is polytheistic, I find your complaints a little strange...

The default assumption that a cleric of a polytheistic religion would be entirely devoted to one god, that the churches of different gods within the same pantheon would be different organizations, and many other such things of traditional D&D are the oddities. What you describe, a person who offers prayers to the god that is most important and relevant to him at the moment, is what would be considered to be a normal polytheistic priest. It is not like the Invoker is Christian one minute and Zoroastrian the next. Instead, he is offering prayers to Odin one minute and Thor the next. Nothing really odd about that. Things like different religious tenants and such probably would never come into it.

Anyways, I really like the fluff of the Invoker, at least as I am aware of it. It gives the vibe of the holy man who lives outside of the established order, who has received divine revelation and goes forth to directly serve the will of the gods, rather than the ideals of mortal clergy. It is the kind of figure who may find himself at odds with the doctrine of his religion, which he may consider corrupt or tainted by ideals other than those of the gods, and thus would try to change said doctrine.

An Eberron Invoker of the Silver Flame would be a lot of fun to play...