Dragon 370 - Invoker Preview

[Drkfathr1]

Sigh. Adding some new at-wills in Arcane Power would be great.

Wish the Controller role had been completely designed before 4E was published though.

So how long before we get a revised Player's Handbook?

 

[Obryn]

Yes and no. While some at-wills are definitely better than others under certain circumstances, and some are even mathematically better than others (careful strike vs twin strike I'm looking at you), I'm pretty sure this is the first time we've seen an exact copy of another classes power which has an additional effect. I.e.: it's strictly superior under all circumstances.

Greenflame Blade is an example of an at-will which is clearly superior to an existing at-will (Cleave). There are circumstances where you might want Cleave, but I can't figure out too many. Maybe fire-resistant foes? Getting flanked by a Minion?

And I'm not sure I like that... it's the first 100% undeniable power creep in 4e. You can't really argue that it's balanced because the class gets weaker encounter/daily powers, because with multiclass feats a character can easily negate that disadvantage.

That comes at a non-negligible cost of at least two feats, though.

So, any suggestion on how to "Improve" the Wizard's at-wills?

I know this wasn't asked of me, but have you looked at the various Master's Wands in AV? Equipment is hardly a patch, but they directly improve Wizards' At-Wills.

For single [W] powers, sure, they are basically the same thing. But... (as I'm sure you are aware) the real value of the increase weapon die comes from the fact that it is multiplied by the many multi [W] powers... a flat +1 will still only be +1 on a 2[W] or 3[W] power, but increase a daily power from 3d8 to 3d10 (ie: longsword to bastard sword) increases the average damage from 13.5 to 16.5. And there isn't exactly a shortage of these powers.

On the other side of the coin, though, the Elemental properties are more likely to affect multiple opponents at once. Increasing the die size for a Superior Weapon is likeliest to affect only one or two foes. Increasing elemental damage by 1 point is likely to hit multiple foes at once, in many circumstances.

-O

 

[Felon]

[

Well... that's certainly not what I was expecting. Wasn't expecting them to have more than cloth armor, nor would I have ever thought that holy symbols wouldn't be implements for them... huh.

Chainmail? Damn. That actually is a shame. But it seems Divine characters always are about The Armor.

I'm surprised many folks in this thread expressed surprise that the invoker gets chainmail. It seems to be a staple of class design that if you don't have Dex or Int as your numero uno stat, you're likely to get medium armor. The couple of exceptions that spring to mind--warlock and swordmage--use Int as a secondary stat, and then get some defense boost as a patch.

 

[Felon]

As a Wizard I envy the Invokers At-Wills and the fact that he targets only enemies (sometimes even benefits allies).

This little heretofore overlooked post from a few pages back underscores what really makes the invoker outshine the wizard. In my group, I've seen a lot of folks skip right over the distinction between "Target: each creature in burst" and "Target: each enemy in burst" as if it were some minor nuance. It's huge. It's the difference between groaning in impotent frustration because the defender and striker are moshing with the bad guys and tossing AoE's with wild abandon.

The wizard has way too many "each creature" AoE's, while in contrast the invoker has AoE's that harm only enemies while buffing allies.

That's the sweetest plum.

 

[Zaukrie]

Unlike some in this thread, I'm glad WotC is adjusting things and fixing them as they go. Nothing is perfect out of the box, and I'm glad they are learning and improving the system as they go.

I appreciate that Mearls came here and posted also.

But, yeah, the invoker looks a little better in the at-will area right now. But, I suppose, if it is a huge issue for your game, give the wizard the option of choosing the invoker's at wills. That wasn't too hard (you may want to change the specifics of some of the attacks, if not the effects).

 

[Zsig]

So, I'm not sure I got how Covenant of Wrath's power thing works:

Do you get +1 to damage for each enemy caught with the power (ie, 3 enemies = +3 damage to each)?

Or do you simply get +1 to damage to each enemy caught up with the power?


I've seen people saying one thing here, and then somewhere else people saying another...

But either way, if the right one is the former than I think it's too powerful, if it's the latter then it's probably too weak, Heh, kinda tricky uh?

 

[Felon]

On the other side of the coin, though, the Elemental properties are more likely to affect multiple opponents at once. Increasing the die size for a Superior Weapon is likeliest to affect only one or two foes. Increasing elemental damage by 1 point is likely to hit multiple foes at once, in many circumstances.

Granted, we don't have a martial controller, but other than that, I don't see where you're going with that. There are plenty of ways to hit multiple targets with martial powers, and aside from the wizard's big AoE's, they're about as good as anyone else's powers. Certainly Sweeping Strike and Dire Wolverine Strike see plenty of use in the games I play.

And heck, the wizard's big AoE's have a nasty tendency to target "all creatures" rather than all "all enemies", which kind of handicaps the utility of having a big AoE in the first place.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Unlike some in this thread, I'm glad WotC is adjusting things and fixing them as they go. Nothing is perfect out of the box, and I'm glad they are learning and improving the system as they go.

I'm very glad they're doing this, too. I just hope they decide to go back at some point and update old at wills.

 

[Felon]

Unlike some in this thread, I'm glad WotC is adjusting things and fixing them as they go. Nothing is perfect out of the box, and I'm glad they are learning and improving the system as they go.

Nothing is perfect out-of-the-box, but the stuff folks expected WotC to get right out-of-the-box is far short of perfection (*cough*Careful Strike*cough*). But that's water under the bridge.

I'm glad to see them willing to fine-tune as they go, but we haven't actually seen how they're going to fix things that require a patch, like Wizards. Personally, I'd be fine with PHB2 featuring revised powers.

 

[Obryn]

Granted, we don't have a martial controller, but other than that, I don't see where you're going with that. There are plenty of ways to hit multiple targets with martial powers, and aside from the wizard's big AoE's, they're about as good as anyone else's powers. Certainly Sweeping Strike and Dire Wolverine Strike see plenty of use in the games I play.

I'm not saying there are zero ways to hit multiple targets with [W] attacks. I'm saying there are fewer ways to hit multiple targets with [W] attacks. Yes, sweeping strike is certainly one exception, and Rangers get to attack two enemies every single round. OTOH, the Wizard has a lot more Blasts and Bursts in his arsenal, including several At-Wills. Thus, they will get a lot more mileage out of +1 damage per enemy hit than weapon-based classes would.

And heck, the wizard's big AoE's have a nasty tendency to target "all creatures" rather than all "all enemies", which kind of handicaps the utility of having a big AoE in the first place.

I'm just arguing about the damage bonus, not about how much better All Enemies is.

-O