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[-Archangel-]

First look at lvl 5 3.5e monk shows you forgot to put lvl 4 ability boost into Dex to make it 16. So his attack and AC is one less.

As for higher levels, I haven't looked at it yet but without equipment there is not real comparison. Especially if you removed Wis as being an important stat for your Monks (because 3.5e monks gain more from stat boosting equipment), and if you gave your monks level progression to attack and damage with fists.
I applaud your attempt at making monks less dependent on magical items but it is not a valid comparison.

It is almost like comparing a fighter without magical equipment with a sorcerer without one. Sorcerer will be on top no matter in what arena you put them.

Also you comparison does not invalidate my points, which were that 3.5e monks are weak when compared with other classes and monks needs a boost which Pathfinder has done, while your changes have not.
The styles are a cool concept but except for making one monk different from another monk it has done nothing to make monks have a more prominent place in an adventuring party.

 

[Kerrick]

First look at lvl 5 3.5e monk shows you forgot to put lvl 4 ability boost into Dex to make it 16. So his attack and AC is one less.

Oops. Fixed.

As for higher levels, I haven't looked at it yet but without equipment there is not real comparison. Especially if you removed Wis as being an important stat for your Monks (because 3.5e monks gain more from stat boosting equipment), and if you gave your monks level progression to attack and damage with fists.

I'd have thought that a "pure" comparison (i.e., without equipment) would be the best indicator of where their strengths and weaknesses lie - after all, you don't have all kinds of items shoring up their weak points and strengthening their strong points.

I applaud your attempt at making monks less dependent on magical items but it is not a valid comparison.

Why?

It is almost like comparing a fighter without magical equipment with a sorcerer without one. Sorcerer will be on top no matter in what arena you put them.

Depends on their relative level, first off - a low-level fighter will tear the sorcerer apart, while the reverse is true at higher levels. We're comparing the same class against itself, however.

Also you comparison does not invalidate my points, which were that 3.5e monks are weak when compared with other classes and monks needs a boost which Pathfinder has done, while your changes have not.

Edit: I took the time to actually LOOK at the monk, instead of just skim over it like I did before. They didn't actually add anything, besides maneuver training (replace BAB with monk level when using CMB), high jump (Leap of the Clouds) and the ki pool. The ki pool gives you: ki strike, an extra attack with flurry, a 1-round speed boost, or a +4 dodge bonus for 1 round. It also enables you to use the healing ability, abundant step, and empty body more often. Yes, it's a boost over the vanilla monk, but it's not really an improvement - the monk is still a smorgasbord of random, unrelated abilities, it still suffers from MAD, and it still has the flurry of misses.

The styles are a cool concept but except for making one monk different from another monk it has done nothing to make monks have a more prominent place in an adventuring party.

I'd prefer to reserve judgment until someone's actually playtested it.

 

[-Archangel-]

Oops. Fixed.

I'd have thought that a "pure" comparison (i.e., without equipment) would be the best indicator of where their strengths and weaknesses lie - after all, you don't have all kinds of items shoring up their weak points and strengthening their strong points.

D&D characters are their equipment. This is standard. At high levels it is cheaper/easier to die then lose your equipment.

Why?

See above. You cannot compare classes without equipment, not even same ones. For instance, a two-weapon fighter depends on a elemental weapon enchantments to do any damage while a Two-handed one does not.
If you compare this two characters only with basic non-magical equipment, the two-handed one will always come out on top, and by a big margin.

Depends on their relative level, first off - a low-level fighter will tear the sorcerer apart, while the reverse is true at higher levels. We're comparing the same class against itself, however.

From lvl 6 onwards he will not. Even a well build lower level sorcerer will kill the fighter almost everytime. A wizards even easier and earlier. At lvl 1 the fighter can also fail his will save against sleep and get killed.
Then when you compare their contribution in an adventuring party, the fighter without equipment will be useless against their CR opponents, while wizard/sorcerer will still be fairly useful (their DC will 2-3 lower).

Edit: I took the time to actually LOOK at the monk, instead of just skim over it like I did before. They didn't actually add anything, besides maneuver training (replace BAB with monk level when using CMB), high jump (Leap of the Clouds) and the ki pool. The ki pool gives you: ki strike, an extra attack with flurry, a 1-round speed boost, or a +4 dodge bonus for 1 round. It also enables you to use the healing ability, abundant step, and empty body more often. Yes, it's a boost over the vanilla monk, but it's not really an improvement - the monk is still a smorgasbord of random, unrelated abilities, it still suffers from MAD, and it still has the flurry of misses.

All this makes Pathfinder Monk much better then 3.5e and yours. Maybe yours has better flavor, but mechanics wise is worse.

 

[Kerrick]

D&D characters are their equipment. This is standard. At high levels it is cheaper/easier to die then lose your equipment.

Sad but true. It's something I'm working on rectifying, though.

From lvl 6 onwards he will not. Even a well build lower level sorcerer will kill the fighter almost everytime. A wizards even easier and earlier. At lvl 1 the fighter can also fail his will save against sleep and get killed.

It really depends on who wins initiative - if the fighter gets it, he can whale on the sorcerer, preventing him from getting a spell off and win the fight.

Then when you compare their contribution in an adventuring party, the fighter without equipment will be useless against their CR opponents, while wizard/sorcerer will still be fairly useful (their DC will 2-3 lower).

True... fighters are horribly gear-dependent, but that's their thing - they wear armor and wield weapons. A fighter that fights with no weapons or armor is... a monk.

All this makes Pathfinder Monk much better then 3.5e and yours. Maybe yours has better flavor, but mechanics wise is worse.

Okay, let me ask: Where do you think my monk falls short? How is the Pathfinder monk better, in your opinion?

 

[-Archangel-]

You weakened Flurry of Blows for one. That is the biggest combat difference.
Then the Pathfinder monk has the Ki Pool abilities which is a great idea and great mechanics. Your Monk also has lower AC without equipment (and monks in 3.5e already suffer from lower AC then fighters at lower levels). Pathfinder also improved Monk's AC gain a bit.

You got martial styles which I like as a idea (although I feel you complicated it a bit too much).

And although monks were envisioned as a fighter that does not need a weapon and armor they are just as dependent on magical equipment as the fighter is (if not more due to MAD). And monsters in D&D expect you to have good magical equipment or they eat you for breakfast.

 

[Kerrick]

You weakened Flurry of Blows for one. That is the biggest combat difference.

Umm... not really. They lose a single attack, but at higher levels, they can make a flurry as a standard action instead of a full-round action. That's a HUGE boost, IMO.

Then the Pathfinder monk has the Ki Pool abilities which is a great idea and great mechanics.

Can't realy argue with that.

Your Monk also has lower AC without equipment (and monks in 3.5e already suffer from lower AC then fighters at lower levels). Pathfinder also improved Monk's AC gain a bit.

Umm... did you look at the higher-level monks? The average AC (sans equipment) is 2-3 points higher for my monk. While I ditched the Wis bonus to AC, I compensated for it by boosting the insight bonus. Mountain Style has a lower AC, sure, but they have DR too.

You got martial styles which I like as a idea (although I feel you complicated it a bit too much).

It could be a little intimidating to a new player, I suppose.

And although monks were envisioned as a fighter that does not need a weapon and armor they are just as dependent on magical equipment as the fighter is (if not more due to MAD). And monsters in D&D expect you to have good magical equipment or they eat you for breakfast.

My monk reduces the MAD syndrome - each style needs only two major stats and one minor, just like almost every other class. The 3.5 monk needs FOUR major stats - Wis, Dex, Str, and Con in more or less that order. The Mountain Style monk, as an example, needs only Str and Con, and Wis or Int if he wants to boost a few skills or skill points. That's it. Shadow? Int and Dex, and Str or Con as a minor stat (depending if he wants damage output or more hit points). With the scaling ki strike, monks totally break free of the dependence on magical weapons, as it should be.

 

[Kerrick]

Forums are up, and most of the magic items are up, along with a bunch of other stuff - I've been busy the last week. I just need to finish the magic items (a couple more days), write some discussion stuff, then it's on to epic!

 

[Kerrick]

Just thought I'd bump this. I've long since completed integrating epic rules into the core, and the system itself is done, for the most part - all I need to do is the monsters, and I'm waiting on UK's v6 for that.

(On a side note, I've made a few improvements to the monk - their unarmed attack is treated as a true magic weapon, not just for purposes of bypassing DR, which makes them a lot more viable in combat.)

 

[Gansk]

What happened to the spells?

 

[Aus_Snow]

Just thought I'd bump this. I've long since completed integrating epic rules into the core, and the system itself is done, for the most part - all I need to do is the monsters, and I'm waiting on UK's v6 for that.

That's splendid news. Not the waiting, but the use of the IH app. v6. Also, that you have epic all wrapped up. Er, folded in. Whatever. Sounds good. 'grats.