D&D 4E 4E combat and non-combat timing

[CapnZapp]

By now, it's well known 4E combats take a long time (measured by in-game rounds, not necessarily in real-life gameplay time).

This has some pretty significant implications, regarding how combat interacts with other actions, such as movement.

For example, you can't expect to take out a squad of guards before reinforcements arrive at the scene.

Not if we compare the exact same scene to 3E, that is. There those guards would have many fewer hit points. (Compared to the minute-long rounds of AD&D, of course, combat might even feel quick, but that's beside the point here)

I'm faintly surprised that the DMG does not seem to discuss this.

4E returns to a "story first" approach in so many other areas (like how NPCs don't play by the same rules as PCs does, and how the game can contain more magical effects than what's available to the PCs; just to mention two examples).

I would have expected the DMG to say things like "there isn't a hard relation between the number of rounds taken by combat, and the number of seconds that passes outside of combat" or similar.

My point is that 4E seems ripe for guidelines that allow the DM to say things like "even though that last combat took 20 rounds, it must have been all the excitement that made it feel long-winded and drawn-out. As the dust settles, you realize it's only been half a minute, and that the alarm has not been sounded yet."

Perhaps even involve skill challenges in such a way as to give the players influence over the passage of time: a successful challenge might mean you knock out the butler before the countess arrives, or the other way around: that your rear-guard action took several minutes allowing the children to safely reach the church, despite how the Orcs all died in just two or three rounds?

A penny for your thoughts on this...

 

[James McMurray]

4E design philosophy ignores timing like that. Either the encounters are designed with multiple waves factored in, or there are short rests in between (preferably both, with the GM using whatever fits the situation best). Cinematics and balance over realism. It's definitely not the only way to do it, but doing otherwise would mean revamping the way powers work or ignoring encounter balance.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry, but I must have explained clumsily. I'm not worried about encounters or balance.

I'm worried the game won't let my players plan an ambush because "we'll never kill them in time", and would like to hear your opinion on how to handle timing issues, subjective time and the like...

Assuming a six-second round, how do you handle the fact a Solo (the extreme case) will take minutes to take down, regardless of the PCs' precautions or clever planning?

 

[cjais]

Assuming a six-second round, how do you handle the fact a Solo (the extreme case) will take minutes to take down, regardless of the PCs' precautions or clever planning?

Well, if you have players that think it's reasonable to kill a dragon within 60 seconds, maybe it's them being "unrealistic" and not the DMG.

In general, if the players have prepared a guard ambush so meticulously, I'd just hand them the victory. Of course, they don't get any experience since it wasn't a real challenge. It's just a speed bump on the story line.

 

[chaotix42]

In 3e I designed dungeons with a lot of potential "spill over" between encounters, and monsters from one room would often join in while the PCs were battling something else. It made for some great battles, and a few delves turned into giant brawls where it seemed like the entire dungeon was after the PCs!

In 4e I find myself designing encounters that are far more self-contained, with little potential for "spill over." My dungeons are more sprawling now, or smaller and more sparsely populated. If in any encounter reinforcements are a possibility I'll try to factor them into the initial encounter. However, just recently my PCs ran afoul of an army of hobgoblins and had to deal with an unbeatable amount of reinforcements too organized to defeat piecemeal - they were eventually taken prisoner. This is an exceptional situation in my 4e campaign so far, and it's actually the PCs faults for sticking their noses where it don't belong.

I think the idea of a skill challenge changing the progression of time in an important encounter is a great idea though. The PCs could be fighting a delaying battle, and with appropriate skill checks can draw the battle out with a lot of circling, posturing, intimidation, and dynamic scene changes. With one good check maybe the rogue gets his knife pressed up to the throat of an enemy and holds him hostage, turning one round of combat into a tense 1 minute stand-off.

How would you implement a skill challenge to condense the PC's actions into a smaller time frame, though? 20 rounds in 20 seconds seems hard to swallow, especially if the battle covers a wide area and involves a lot of movement. It's an interesting idea though - perhaps the skill checks allow for drastic twists in the combat, like "instant death" for a few of the enemies? Knocking out the butler/guard before the countess arrives is a great idea that makes for a quick skill challenge with the the threat of a normal encounter upon failure.

 

[Dracorat]

Of course, they don't get any experience since it wasn't a real challenge. It's just a speed bump on the story line.

I'd give them full XP and possibly a bonus. I encourage that type of behavior.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, if you have players that think it's reasonable to kill a dragon within 60 seconds, maybe it's them being "unrealistic" and not the DMG.

Don't be preposterous. I never said such a thing.

A solo could just be a cocky goblin, for chrissake.

In general, if the players have prepared a guard ambush so meticulously, I'd just hand them the victory. Of course, they don't get any experience since it wasn't a real challenge. It's just a speed bump on the story line.

Thanks for erasing my whole adventure... Sheesh, what's with this "if it doesn't fit my view of the 4E design guidelines, then it can't happen".

Can't you see that having a complex (castle, thieves' guild, etc) with roving guard patrols is a perfectly normal idea for an adventure? (At least it is if you're able to see beyond simplistic room-by-room dungeon-bashing)

Where the entire idea is to avoid enough patrols as to avoid being overwhelmed? Meaning that the guard patrols can't be pushovers (because then there wouldn't be any point in avoiding any of them).

Saying "you can't have that in 4E" is merely stupid and ignorant. But essentially saying "you should not have that in 4E" is downright insulting.





*Deep breath*






Let me try again.

My question is, how do you handle the fact that sometimes, a combat that's taking a good number of combat rounds, for story purposes must be regarded as being over fairly quickly? What are your thoughts on the fact this doesn't seem to be discussed by the DMG, even though it provides excellent advice on many other plot-related issues?

 

[Dracorat]

OK to answer the question as it's asked...

Reduce the HP level of the mob.

Problem solved.

 

[CapnZapp]

In 3e I designed dungeons with a lot of potential "spill over" between encounters, and monsters from one room would often join in while the PCs were battling something else. It made for some great battles, and a few delves turned into giant brawls where it seemed like the entire dungeon was after the PCs!

In 4e I find myself designing encounters that are far more self-contained, with little potential for "spill over." My dungeons are more sprawling now, or smaller and more sparsely populated. If in any encounter reinforcements are a possibility I'll try to factor them into the initial encounter. However, just recently my PCs ran afoul of an army of hobgoblins and had to deal with an unbeatable amount of reinforcements too organized to defeat piecemeal - they were eventually taken prisoner. This is an exceptional situation in my 4e campaign so far, and it's actually the PCs faults for sticking their noses where it don't belong.

I think the idea of a skill challenge changing the progression of time in an important encounter is a great idea though. The PCs could be fighting a delaying battle, and with appropriate skill checks can draw the battle out with a lot of circling, posturing, intimidation, and dynamic scene changes. With one good check maybe the rogue gets his knife pressed up to the throat of an enemy and holds him hostage, turning one round of combat into a tense 1 minute stand-off.

How would you implement a skill challenge to condense the PC's actions into a smaller time frame, though? 20 rounds in 20 seconds seems hard to swallow, especially if the battle covers a wide area and involves a lot of movement. It's an interesting idea though - perhaps the skill checks allow for drastic twists in the combat, like "instant death" for a few of the enemies? Knocking out the butler/guard before the countess arrives is a great idea that makes for a quick skill challenge with the the threat of a normal encounter upon failure.

Thank you for your reply.

I should probably add that my primary drive for this thread is to arrive at a way to make this "time compression" into a known factor for the players.

I mean, sure I can just handwave things and say "you know those cultists you just took out. That only took 20 seconds."

Problem is that the players might never dare (or even consider) attacking them. I.e. "Let's see. Even if we unload all our dailes, we can expect the cultists to stay alive for 12 rounds, minimum. That's too long - the patrolling Dragon will surely spot trouble then. Sure, we can hope the DM is lenient about this time thing, but let's not stake our survival onto something as fickle or random as that."

 

[disarray2]

I would think most guards would walk thru every 10 to 15 mins. Less if there is more then one group patrolling. But if the group watched the guards for a bit, notice a pattern then went in right after they walked by, I would give it to them as they killed em off before the guards came by.

But if they didn't do those things and just ran in, then let them get attacked by the guards too.

But honestly at 6 secs and 20 rounds that's still only 2 minutes. that's not much time.