Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder: How Should it Handle High Level Dependence on Magic Items, ie the "Big 6"

[Giltonio_Santos]

Placing limits on stuff is a nice solution. Some of those problems never affected 2E because no character would have an AC better than -10 or a strength of 26; stacking wasn't the automatic path to victory.

Unfortunately, the "no limit" paradigm is such an important part of 3E and beyond that it makes it almost impossible to envision a system were characters are limited on their stats.

Cheers,

 

[billd91]

I too find it quite frustrating to hear players describe anything less than a 16 as "not a good stat".

I find it weird and disheartening too since that 16 nets you a better bonus, in most cases, than it ever did in previous editions. I initially thought 3e was awesome because it removed PCs from the tyranny of having to have stratospheric stats to get modest bonuses, and also because it had stat increasing items that could be found to offer modest increases to those stats rather than the big jump you got from girdles of giant strength/gauntlets of ogre power in 1e/2e.

If you actually roll your stats, a 16 is actually a pretty damn good stat. There's a reason I like my players to roll their stats.

 

[billd91]

I'm wondering how much of this is a legacy of the bonus progression that was introduced by Drow gear in the Giants and Underdark series in 1E.

I mean, the drow had increasingly better bonus items, and increasingly better statistics. I think that the game has taken and built in that progression, much to the detriment of the game.

They did have sweet item bonuses, but I don't think it can be traced to back then. We had 2 decades of play after that before 3e without the same problem we have now. But then, with 1e/2e, AC was capped. Max strength was capped. Point buy systems for stats were comparatively rare.

That said, in 1e/2e, who really played a fighter without an 18/xx strength? Not many. Or if you did, you hunted desperately for gauntlets of ogre strength to get the decent bonuses. Some stat inflation is all right there since 1e, day 1, before the Drow.

 

[S'mon]

Placing limits on stuff is a nice solution. Some of those problems never affected 2E because no character would have an AC better than -10 or a strength of 26; stacking wasn't the automatic path to victory.

A 3e PC is supposed to be limited to a +5 inherent bonus (from Wishes etc) and a +6 Enhancement item bonus on stat, but AFAICR the level-up bonus is another +5 (at 20th) on top of that, so a starting 18 becomes 18+5+6+5 = 34 at 20th. I think this is too high, I also think many 3e monsters' stats are too high, especially Strength. The scale seems wonky. I like 1e hill giants with STR 19, which gave +7 damage, equivalent to STR 20-21 with 2-handed weapon in 3e.

 

[S'mon]

That said, in 1e/2e, who really played a fighter without an 18/xx strength? Not many. Or if you did, you hunted desperately for gauntlets of ogre strength to get the decent bonuses. Some stat inflation is all right there since 1e, day 1, before the Drow.

I think 1e's top-loaded bonuses led to attribute inflation, reaching its nadir in the Unearthed Arcana "best 3 of 9d6, 8d6, 7d6..." generation system. I'm running a 1e module for C&C currently, and many NPCs have Superhuman stats, barely one below 17.

In Classic D&D (B/X-BECMI-RC) though, a 16 STR gives a very acceptable +2 to hit & damage, not really overshadowed by STR 18's +3. C&C follows this line, and I find it works a lot better than the AD&D attribute bonuses.

 

[roguerouge]

When doing polls, you should always have a static quo or do nothing option. You bias your results otherwise.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

In Classic D&D (B/X-BECMI-RC) though, a 16 STR gives a very acceptable +2 to hit & damage, not really overshadowed by STR 18's +3. C&C follows this line, and I find it works a lot better than the AD&D attribute bonuses.

Classic D&D also had a hard cap of 18 for all ability scores, no stat-boosting spells, no racial stat modifiers, no exceptional strength, relatively few buffing spells, and only one stat-boosting item (Gauntlets of Ogre Power, which gave you a flat 18). The absence of those things was wonderful. I loved it then and I'd love to play it now.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

How about not distributing these items by the cartload when you are the DM ?

So dont use the rules or any published modules as written?

I vote to put that stuff in the PC's leveling mechanics. Make it so you gain a stat every 2 levels, and 2 every 4. Make weapon focus scale to a +1 every 5 levels. Whatever results in the math being roughly equal without worrying which bonus spells are lost when someone takes off their headband of intellect or whatever.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I'd rather they came up with better guidelines for limiting "magic shops" in the game world.

IE, the fighter. Because apparently gamers were so traumatized by jocks, fighters arent allowed easy access to nice things.

 

[catsclaw227]

I like a lot of JoeTheLawyer's ideas in the OP, but I am concerned how much if this is dealt with from a simulationist or narrativist standpoint.

One of the big issues with the 4e detractors is that the rules are made to make the game fun and balanced, not necessarily that it makes sense in the game world.

So what is the reason why you only get a total of +5 of save boosts? Why is there a limit on the number of uses of a stat boosting magic items? How, if magic item creation is such a big part of the Wizard lifestyle, are there not magic shops?

If you look at Ptolus, a good representation of a city build with 3.x in mind, and you have a lot of power creep and the proliferation of magic is fairly high.

I would love to see how Pathfinder "solves" this issue, but like any major change, it will see some pushback.

Also, it will get in the way of the backward compatibility goal they have for the system.