Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder: How Should it Handle High Level Dependence on Magic Items, ie the "Big 6"

[joethelawyer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by joethelawyer
and for any item above 5000 gp in market value, if a caster creates it he loses 1 constitution point permanently.

Ouch! Part of the ethos of 3E is that spellcasters are supposed to create magic items.

As for bonuses, how about restricting them to class bonus, feat bonus, magic bonus, and circumstance bonus?

And with regard to CR, doesn't everyone give the published CRs a sanity check anyway?

I prefer rounded, more versatile, PCs, which knocks CRs down a bit anyway.

Yeah, we tend to do a more 1e style game. We dont even use 3.5, we use 3.0 as the base rules which, as you can see, we houserule to death.

 

[Stalker0]

You could do a way similar to 4e, in that the magic item "bonuses" (aka the +'s to armor, weapon/damage, and defenses) all rises in a very expected progression. Except you simply make it a part of leveling.

For example, a 6th level character gains a +1 bonus to attack/damage, AC (another +1 if using a shield), and saves.

From there, increase the amount of stat bumps players get (either more frequent, or more bumps every 4 levels).

You would likely need to tone down the amount of wealth players get, and curtail certain items (a flaming sword becomes a lot more useful when your sword is already effectively +5).

Overall, this would accomplish the goal. Players no longer need magic items to get the standard bonuses, they are already a part of leveling. At that point, additional magic is mainly for fun effects.

 

[DaveMage]

I don't think they should change a thing regarding these items. Instead, they can have a area in the DM section where they talk about the implications of having these items in your game.

However, if they MUST change something:

I'd rather they came up with better guidelines for limiting "magic shops" in the game world.

Alternatively, you could also add a rule whereby multiple "ability boosting" items cause harm to the wearer (such as hit point loss, or save penalties). For example, for every ability-boosting item beyond the first, you suffer a -1 cumulative penalty on all saving throws and ability checks.

Finally, you could treat ability boosting items as minor artifacts, whose "creation secets" have been lost.

 

[mmu1]

I picked 7, rather than leaving it blank - I've considered just acknowledging that the 3E rules have a built-in point buy component and rolling with it before.

However, I don't think a simple replacement of all (or nearly all) magic items with abilities now inherent to the PCs would be something that would work for me, so if I was going to do it, here's how I'd approach it:

1. Make it possible for PCs to simply buy increases to stats, some kind of "defense" AC bonus, natural armor (limited to a reasonable level, so that you wouldn't have humans with ogre-thick hides...) possibly saves as well - but make the "budget" for this considerably lower than the current wealth guidelines would allow.

2. Make magic items that boost stats, magic armor, magic weapons, etc. much rarer and more expensive - but what did exist would be more powerful, so that if a character did eventually get his hands on a magical item, it would set him apart. For example, no easy to find and affordable Gauntlets of Ogre Strength with a +2 bonus - instead, an item that gives (at a minimum) a +4 bonus and (for example) lets you use weapons one category larger. Every powerful item should have some kind of unique secondary ability, for flavor.

Same thing with items like Rings of Protection - rather than have everyone running around with a +1, make it so that when the party takes off a ring +3 off of some assassin that seemed impossibly hard to hit, it feels like something major.

3. Keep at least some of the buff spells, but make them higher level, to force meaningful choices. (I don't feel like having a world where the greatest archmage or the high priest of the god of Strength can't make someone stronger - so, no getting rid of buff spells outright). Maybe make more spells self-only, to stop the pre-fight buffing rituals.

 

[tomBitonti]

Legacy of the drow

I'm wondering how much of this is a legacy of the bonus progression that was introduced by Drow gear in the Giants and Underdark series in 1E.

I mean, the drow had increasingly better bonus items, and increasingly better statistics. I think that the game has taken and built in that progression, much to the detriment of the game.

I cringe nowadays when I see a 3.5E player with an 18 base stat, and 4 points of bonus by level 16, and 6 points of bonus from a stat item. A 16'th level half-orc barbarian with this setup, and raging, has what, a 36 strength? With, say, a +4 two-handed sword, and weapon focus that leads to a +34 attack bonus and a +30 damage bonus? (My numbers may be off a bit.)

My suggestion is to unwind the progression. Start players a little lower (so that the 3d8 bell curve actually has a point), and put back in diminishing returns, and have the extra progression be provided through feats (e.g. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization). Then, limit the bonuses that may be obtained from items, and perhaps limit the number of such items which may be worn at a time.

I'm alright with spells that grant a temporary bonus, but still think that should be limited to just +2 or +4, and for only a couple of minutes. (And, I think that all such bonuses should carry an exhaustion penalty, similar to that which occurs following a barbarian's rage.)

 

[tomBitonti]

The other change I would make would be to reduce the number of different types of bonuses.

(Not necessarily with these names):

Attack: Accuracy, Power, Sharpness
Defense: Dodge, Deflect
Damage: Ablate

Generally, I'm seeing that for an attack, you can avoid the attack, either by pushing it aside, or moving aside yourself, or you can weaken the attack, or strengthen your resistance to the attack.

 

[Kerrick]

The other change I would make would be to reduce the number of different types of bonuses.

(Not necessarily with these names):

Attack: Accuracy, Power, Sharpness
Defense: Dodge, Deflect
Damage: Ablate

Generally, I'm seeing that for an attack, you can avoid the attack, either by pushing it aside, or moving aside yourself, or you can weaken the attack, or strengthen your resistance to the attack.

That's pretty much what I did - reduce the number of types of bonuses (I ditched alchemical and sacred/profane), then I adapted something RangerWickett came up with in the General RPG forum and refined it with a little help. This is the result:

Intrinsic: These are almost always bonuses (except for ability and size); they generally derive from something inherent to the character or creature, and are always extraordinary in nature (though they can come from magical or supernatural sources like spells and magic items). Armor, craft, natural armor, racial, resistance, and shield bonuses, and ability and size modifiers, are inherent. Intrinsic modifiers stack with each other (as long as they're different types) and internal and external modifiers.

Internal: Internal modifiers are those that generally apply because of the character's or creature's innate abilities, or the improvement thereof. They are generally permanent, but can be bonuses or penalties. Internal modifiers are generally supernatural or magical in nature. Competence, dodge, enhancement, insight, and morale modifiers are all internal.

External: External modifiers are applied from an outside source. Unlike internal bonuses, they are very rarely permanent and are usually granted by spells or magic items. Circumstance, deflection, and luck modifiers are all external.

The end result is that only ONE type of bonus from each category (internal and external) applies to a given number. For example, you can have size, armor, and natural armor bonuses to AC, but only dodge and deflection in addition. I also ruled that natural armor bonuses don't stack - if you have existing natural armor and slap on an amulet, it won't work unless it's better than what you have.

Oh yeah, and spell DCs are based on 10 + 1/2 caster level + spell level - this mitigates the need for stat-boosting items (they're still nice for bonus spells, but not necessary to boost DCs).

 

[delericho]

My suggestion is to unwind the progression. Start players a little lower (so that the 3d8 bell curve actually has a point), and put back in diminishing returns, and have the extra progression be provided through feats (e.g. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization).

While I actually agree with this in principle, the nature of power creep is that it is very very hard to roll back - players look at their numbers, see that they are lower than they would like, and complain. Even if everything else is scaled accordingly.

I too find it quite frustrating to hear players describe anything less than a 16 as "not a good stat".

 

[kenmarable]

Either:

21. Leave as is.

Or since the only real problem I've seen in my campaigns is that "+X to Y" items are boring compared to magic items that actually do something:

22. All magic items of a category grant the bonus. All rings grant a bonus to AC, all head slots grant bonus to mental stat of choice, etc.

Although maybe my campaigns are in the minority. For one thing, out of a couple dozen players over the years, I have been the only one to ever craft items. Once because I was an artificer, and the other because I wanted to make weird freaky new items. In neither case did I bother with boring "+X to Y" items.

 

[phloog]

I worry that pulling a single 'lever' will subject you to the Rule of Unintended Consequences...whether or not it works well (or well for your particular game), it is a rules SYSTEM, which implies a great deal of internal dependencies. So I think it's great that you allow multiple choices in the poll, but even so, now you're potentially throwing MANY levers without a full understanding of that underlying equation of balance.

Other thoughts:

The idea of a magic shop is really theme/campaign dependent - most games I run are imcompatible with this, but if you had more of a Harry Potter-style campaign world then a magic shop makes sense...but to me it would still be in the category of charms, potions, etc. It is EXTREMELY hard to believe that any items of sufficient power would be A ) available and B ) affordable. Imagine a shop with three items worth 10,000 gp each. Suddenly it's a HUGE target for a robbery/theft. The thieves might include wizards of some power. Now imagine the 'security system' you'd need for multiple 10,000gp items - - the price for items suddenly seems too low for me.

The Elements of Magic system that I use in one campaign has a limit of twelve ITEMS, no body slots...you want eight rings you can have them all at once. This would seemingly destroy balance, even with the limit on named bonuses stacking, but in my campaign it's never been a problem. But I think that's primarily due to DMing, and not the way the game is designed.

If I HAD to blow it up and start over, I'd design a system with a cap on total ACTIVE items similar to the EoM 12-Item rule, but I would then make a point of designing more INTERESTING items. Quirky odd stuff that would immediately appeal to the player, and be a good fit for their character concept. Which I guess AGAIN comes down to the DM.

Most of my players don't come to me with this character concept "I want to run a half-orc barbarian who eventually has maxed out his Natural Armor, has used his enhancement bonus items on Dex, and will eventually gain Armor of Etherealness (too dated?)"....my characters always choose an item that is wild, interesting, or seemingly perfect for the character over any of these traditional 'Big 6'.

That to me is where 3.x succeeded and failed. They had this system that could assign various properties to armor (as an example), but then only gave a few unique types, so people will default to +X armor of Y.

The only uniqueness comes from the Z*Q*P combinations of bonuses and options for an item, and for me (a lover of 3.5) it becomes a bit stale. It's almost like the game would be more interesting with LESS rules about creation.

Generally speaking by the higher levels my characters have 'non-book' items...armor that only adds +1 magical bonus, but allows you to turn into a hawk once per day...an amulet that adds nothing to your stats, but when someone is in disguise near you begins to sing an eerie song. These are poor examples, but the idea is that the Rule of Cool trumps min/maxing.

Where this does lead to issues is that encounters in pre-made adventures are seemingly setup with the assumption of this heap of bonuses, but we manage.