Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder: How Should it Handle High Level Dependence on Magic Items, ie the "Big 6"

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think you are answering a question that he didn't ask.

If you don't want magic item shops, he would want any economy where this might be feasible. Because it could be feasible with some kind of market and demand/supply. But that's not what it's about.

The question is - how does it change the game (not the world) if there are no magic item shops and magic items become less available? How will it play differently? How can he ensure that the players still can face the challenges they meet (or figure out which challenges are "fair" to them).

It's a question of game design and not a question of world design.

It is a question of world design- its a simple fact of economics that anything that can be sold will be sold. If magic items exist, there will be a market for them, and wherever there is a market, merchants & other middlemen will pop up. Why? Because of another simple fact- not everyone wants what they have or has what they want, and that means they'll trade/barter/sale to improve their lot in life.

The instant a farmer on a plot of land starts tilling and finds a +1 sword from some ancient battle, he's got the option of keeping it for himself (which may be against the law) and continue farming, keeping it for himself (which may be against the law) and becoming an adventurer, or selling it for something to improve his way of life- new seed, a new plowhorse, bolts of fabric for his wife, a new roof...

The same goes for the warrior who has been using a +1 sword for years, and suddenly finds a +2 flaming Ghostbane sword...he has to decide whether to continue carrying both or to lighten his load and divest himself of one or the other...

The question isn't whether there is going to be a magic shop, the only question will be whether it will be a normal one or black market.

Arbitrarily excising the magic shop because its inconvenient is simply bad design.

Instead of erasing them, all you need to is alter them so they fit your world's internal logic.

If magic is rare and feared, the magic shop will be like the thieves' guild (in fact, they may be one and the same)- meaning that whatever magic they have will be of limited availability and ruinously expensive, far beyond listed prices.

If it is rare and respected/desired, magic will be gobbled up into the hoards of private holders (including PCs), religions, organizations and governments. Access to most items would be as "loans," and again, actual acquisition would be expensive- many times listed prices.

As magic becomes more common, the prices of given items drop.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It is a question of world design- its a simple fact of economics that anything that can be sold will be sold. If magic items exist, there will be a market for them, and wherever there is a market, merchants & other middlemen will pop up. Why? Because of another simple fact- not everyone wants what they have or has what they want, and that means they'll trade/barter/sale to improve their lot in life.

The instant a farmer on a plot of land starts tilling and finds a +1 sword from some ancient battle, he's got the option of keeping it for himself (which may be against the law) and continue farming, keeping it for himself (which may be against the law) and becoming an adventurer, or selling it for something to improve his way of life- new seed, a new plowhorse, bolts of fabric for his wife, a new roof...

The same goes for the warrior who has been using a +1 sword for years, and suddenly finds a +2 flaming Ghostbane sword...he has to decide whether to continue carrying both or to lighten his load and divest himself of one or the other...

The question isn't whether there is going to be a magic shop, the only question will be whether it will be a normal one or black market.

Arbitrarily excising the magic shop because its inconvenient is simply bad design.

Instead of erasing them, all you need to is alter them so they fit your world's internal logic.

If magic is rare and feared, the magic shop will be like the thieves' guild (in fact, they may be one and the same)- meaning that whatever magic they have will be of limited availability and ruinously expensive, far beyond listed prices.

If it is rare and respected/desired, magic will be gobbled up into the hoards of private holders (including PCs), religions, organizations and governments. Access to most items would be as "loans," and again, actual acquisition would be expensive- many times listed prices.

As magic becomes more common, the prices of given items drop.

But that is not the concern! It doesn'T matter whether it's realistic if the prices for +1 items drop or they increase based on demand and supply. It doesn't matter that it might be realistic to at some point for a 2nd level character to stumble on a cache of magic items with a +4 Longsword and Boots of Flying.

What matters for the game is how this affects the game balance. What does it mean if a PC has a 3 points higher attack bonus then "typical" at his level? What does it mean if a PC can fly when the majority of monsters he will meet cannot?
And on the other hand, what after 15 levels, all the Pcs have is a +2 Longsword and a +1 Shield, as well as Boots of Striding and Springing? How does this affect the game balance? What kind of opponents can they face?


There are also game world considerations for this. But that's a different matter.

A simple reason why there is no magical item market is because magical items do not exist. Or maybe they are all sentient and only work if you can convince them to help you. Or you must bind your body and soul to them, so you can never give them away (at least not if you don't want someone else to use your soul for your own purposes).
This creates a very different world, where magical shops might not exist. Where magical items are not easily exchangeable, or can be bought or sold.

But how does this affect the power of the group? How can you measure the threat of certain monsters to them? How can you measure how they are hampered or strengtened by such changes.

 

[Woas]

I voted 15. I'm also think getting rid of Ye Olde Majik Shoppees is also a good idea, but that's in general not really specific to dealing with "Big Six" items.

Having gauntlets of ogre power is very cool and evocative! Having them work 27/7 and basically grafted to the character because the player doesn't even remember them is not! The mental image for the players (and their characters) of seeing an enemy orc evoke some magics and basically "hulk out" from the strange an ornate gauntlets he wears is much more colorful than just having a "pre-hulked" enemy orc who 'Oh by the way he does an extra 2 damage cause he's got magic stuff on and it glows when he hits you or something....'

So in past games of D&D I would dole out these big six items (well, the stat boosters at least) but give them daily limitations that required the wearer to think about when they wanted to use them. The limitations have varied... some examples include: dozens or even unlimited uses per day but the effect only lasts a couple rounds to once a day but lasts hours. And so forth.

 

[CleverNickName]

We played a sandbox game where we all decided that all ability scores were capped at 20. So your bonus to Strength, Dex, etc. could never get higher than +5, no matter how many points you soaked into them or how many spells or magic items you used.

Armor was handled the same way, but the cap was at +10. No matter what feats you took or how much equipment you were wearing, your AC could not get higher than 20.

It accomplished what we were aiming for: less power, less emphasis on equipment, and more focus on tactics. If a rogue could get AC 20 on Dex and leather armor +2 alone, there was no need for hoarding a vast assortment of amulets, rings, bracers, gloves, feats, and whatever else. Instead of concentrating on buffing her gear, the rogue started thinking about ways to get in and out of danger quickly. If the barbarian could get his Strength up to 20 by raging, there wasn't any need for strength-buffing magic...he had to find other ways to amplify his damage in battle. And so on.

It was fun, and it didn't break the game as badly as we thought it would have....but we didn't keep it as a house rule. Turns out, my players LOVE collecting those little gadgets and trinkets, and bragging about how high their armor class gets. It makes me crazy sometimes, but it's not always about me.

 

[S'mon]

Classic D&D also had a hard cap of 18 for all ability scores, no stat-boosting spells, no racial stat modifiers, no exceptional strength, relatively few buffing spells, and only one stat-boosting item (Gauntlets of Ogre Power, which gave you a flat 18). The absence of those things was wonderful. I loved it then and I'd love to play it now.

Yes, I agree. C&C's stat table only goes up to 19, and I stick with that as the limit; although girdles of giant strength can give a greater effective STR, they do it by assigning a fixed STR, not a modifier.

 

[S'mon]

IE, the fighter. Because apparently gamers were so traumatized by jocks, fighters arent allowed easy access to nice things.

Actually if you eliminate buy/sale of magic items, it actually empowers the GM to hand out items that enable the Fighter to compete with the spellcasters. In a standard game IME, if you hand out 'too powerful' sword or armour, the spellcasters insist it gets sold and the money divvied out to everyone to buy stuff. If magic items can't be bought, you can give out the vorpal sword and the party Fighter will keep it and use it.

 

[AllisterH]

Er, how does eliminating the magic shoppe NOT screw over the non-spellcasters?

Spellcasters, thanks to the interaction between the xp table and the EL system actually make out like a bandit for xp. Don't fall into the erroneous belief that spellcasters "lose out" when they create magic items.

They most assuredly don't.

 

[S'mon]

Er, how does eliminating the magic shoppe NOT screw over the non-spellcasters?

Spellcasters, thanks to the interaction between the xp table and the EL system actually make out like a bandit for xp. Don't fall into the erroneous belief that spellcasters "lose out" when they create magic items.

They most assuredly don't.

It doesn't screw over the non-spellcasters IF THE DM GIVES OUT POWERFUL MAGIC ITEMS FOR THEM. You know - in treasure, like what D&D's supposed to be about. Because, like I said above, mahic shoppe lets the spellcasters trade in those powerful magic swords for wands of fireballs and INT/WIS-boosting crap. *sheesh*

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What matters for the game is how this affects the game balance.

Balance is but one concern. The internal logic of a campaign world matters as well, and a skewed economy can really bug some people- as its clear it does me.

A simple reason why there is no magical item market is because magical items do not exist.

Yes, but that's not any FRPG we're talking about. We are- or at least it seemed as if we were- talking about a FRPG in which magic items exist.

Or maybe they are all sentient and only work if you can convince them to help you.

There would still be a market, if not in cash, then in trade. A weapon useless to me because I can't convince it to work for me is just dead weight. I'm going to find someone who will buy it from me.

If the weapon is good in alignment, it may even make sure I'm fairly compensated for carrying it around before leaving my care.

Or you must bind your body and soul to them, so you can never give them away (at least not if you don't want someone else to use your soul for your own purposes).

See above.

Unwilling to bind my body and soul to an item in order to use it, I'll find a way to divest myself of it, even if its for the cost of a morning's meal.

Unless something is known to be cursed, it has economic value, and what has value can and will be sold. And even then, a cursed item may be of value to someone...

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Um, without magic shops, no one is allowed easy access to nice things.

Casters still are. They can still scry, teleport, read thoughts and basically continue to essentially hack the game to utterly dominate combat and non-combat encounters. Non casters depend on external means to achieve some measuer of parity. They're still hosed compared to casters, but the difference is a bit less.

If you dont allow non-casters to essentially choose their gear, you shouldnt allow standard casters in the game at all. Maybe a toned down adept (NPC class) would be ok.