Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder overhaul suggestions, pt. 2

[ruemere]

May I offer two suggestions?

1. AoO counterspelling follows AoO rules with counterspelling range limited to line of sight and counterspelling effect limited to 30' area around counterspelling character.

Consequences:
- wider area spells are only partially affected by counterspelling
- spells with effects occurring outside of 30' range are not subject to AoO counterspelling
- you may counterspell only one spell per round unless you gain more AoOs
- you do not need to research the list of spells to find counterspelling distance

2. Ready-Action counterspelling would more effective, as it would target specific spell. You would need appropriate spell or Dispel magic to execute Ready-Action counterspell.

Consequences:
- you target spell at its source, so you may be able to cancel targeted spell completely
- the range of the dispelling spell must reach targeted spellcaster

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Jeff Wilder]

So change dispel magic to a "1 minute" casting time, and add in a new spell: quick counter or whatever.

Could work.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

So change dispel magic to a "1 minute" casting time, and add in a new spell: quick counter or whatever.

Could work.

Heck, I was satisfied with dispel magic having multiple functions, multiple casting times inside one spell description (cf Magic Circle against Evil).

 

[Scott DeWar]

you mean like a varience from: less effective quick and dirty counter spell (mage vs mage)

to a concentrated long casting that is a near garentee of success ( breaking a strong enchantment of domination or the like)?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Heck, I was satisfied with dispel magic having multiple functions, multiple casting times inside one spell description (cf Magic Circle against Evil).

I suppose, and that was my first thought, but the dispel magic write-up gets awful complex at that point.

Area dispel, targeted dispel, or counterspell? Caster level check or no caster level check?

With the added utility of counterspelling as a reaction, dispel magic gets amped in power pretty high, doesn't it?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I suppose, and that was my first thought, but the dispel magic write-up gets awful complex at that point.

Area dispel, targeted dispel, or counterspell? Caster level check or no caster level check?

I don't think you'll need the area dispel once "the fix" is in.

Ultimately the spell will have two purposes:

1) In combat, as a standard action, whether via counterspell before the fact, or dispel after the fact, vs. a single spell

2) Out of combat, with a long (1 minute + ) casting time

Dispel magic's out of combat (long casting time) function is to remove harmful spells, effects, emanations, etc. en toto, so I am not particularly bothered if the caster can specify multiple effects within the area to be brought to down at once.

With the added utility of counterspelling as a reaction, dispel magic gets amped in power pretty high, doesn't it?

Interestingly enough, I've had multiple players tell me it's worthless if they can't use it to strip away all of the target's buffs in combat, in one casting.

 

[RangerWickett]

This might seem too simple, but for War of the Burning Sky, our counterspell-themed inquisitors could cast counterspells as an immediate reaction, but whenever they did they gave up their standard action in their next round. Say it's from 'fatigue' or something.

I got the idea from the Magic of Faerun book, and it looked fair to me. Trade an action to stop an action, but you don't have the tactical frustration of having to ready a counterspell that might not be necessary. Usually you might have one or two dispel magics on hand, and you'd only trot them out as real life-savers.

As an alternate idea, maybe casting any sort of dispel or counter effect just renders you unable to cast magic or use magical abilities in the next round, due to the lingering antimagic.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

This might seem too simple, but for War of the Burning Sky, our counterspell-themed inquisitors could cast counterspells as an immediate reaction, but whenever they did they gave up their standard action in their next round. Say it's from 'fatigue' or something.

I got the idea from the Magic of Faerun book, and it looked fair to me. Trade an action to stop an action

I think that works fine as a class ability, but as a general ability it's too powerful. The counterspeller has the option to make the trade; the counterspellee does not. The counterspeller can tactically prepare for the consequence of losing an action; the counterspellee can't.

Also, in general I think losing an action in combat is not much fun; while making both people lose an action goes toward balancing that out, fun-wise all it is is twice as not-fun.

 

[RangerWickett]

Good point, but I don't think it's a serious flaw. My players who used the option thought it was a fair trade, and I made sure not to have the villains use it so often that it got un-fun. Nevertheless, I suggest we design a few variant counterspells to make things more interesting.

Dispel Magic is the baseline, the boring one that just strips powers away. We could have variant ones that deal damage, or steal the opposing spell's mana to heal the caster, or create a living spell that attacks at the counterspeller's direction, or maybe just something lets the counterspeller cast a spell of a level equal to or lower than that of the countered spell without expending a spell slot.

Or alternately, we could have a counterspell trigger a battle of wills, with some small rule subset, like . . . I dunno, each caster makes opposed Spellcraft checks, or Bluff and Sense Motive checks to fake each other out, or perhaps the caster whose spell is getting countered can choose to give up his next standard action in order to battle for control of the spell. Think Egg-Chan vs. Lo-Pan in Big Trouble in Little China. They fight for control for a bit, and if one of them wins, he punishes the other.

That kind of stuff would make it more fun.

 

[Kerrick]

Using dispel magic in its current form as an all-purpose spell stripper has its place-- it just isn't combat.

Yeah... having to check against all those spells, and recalc all those bonuses is a bit PITA. An area dispel, however, works against ONE spell per target - that seems to be something people forget. Once it dispels one effect, it stops working against that target. You could even have it work against, say, one effect per caster level (just like normal mass xxx spells). All you have to do is change disjunction to do the same thing instead of auto-dispel everything, and you're golden.

Good point, but I don't think it's a serious flaw. My players who used the option thought it was a fair trade, and I made sure not to have the villains use it so often that it got un-fun. Nevertheless, I suggest we design a few variant counterspells to make things more interesting.

Dispel Magic is the baseline, the boring one that just strips powers away. We could have variant ones that deal damage, or steal the opposing spell's mana to heal the caster, or create a living spell that attacks at the counterspeller's direction, or maybe just something lets the counterspeller cast a spell of a level equal to or lower than that of the countered spell without expending a spell slot.

There are spells like reaving dispel (dispels the spell and deals damage to the caster), and I'm fairly sure there's one that dispels and heals the caster (if not, I'm going to yoink it); I've got one called forceleech that dispels force effects and gives the caster 1 magic missile per spell level. I've also got a PrC called the Spell Channeler that can absorb existing magic effects and use them to power his own spells.

Or alternately, we could have a counterspell trigger a battle of wills, with some small rule subset, like . . . I dunno, each caster makes opposed Spellcraft checks, or Bluff and Sense Motive checks to fake each other out, or perhaps the caster whose spell is getting countered can choose to give up his next standard action in order to battle for control of the spell. Think Egg-Chan vs. Lo-Pan in Big Trouble in Little China. They fight for control for a bit, and if one of them wins, he punishes the other.

That kind of stuff would make it more fun.

Like a mage duel. Each caster would have to win two successive checks to gain control; if the dispeller wins, the spell goes poof, and if the dispellee wins, he can create a magical backlash effect to damage the other guy.