Ema's RPG Sheet Website down...

[Jack99]

But I still see very little difference between 2 sites that both attract users using WotC IP, provide content and support for that IP and collect money to gain full access to tools and services on their respective sites. If the only difference between the 2 sites is the use of a logo or the copying of a few power cards, then I really don't understand why a C&D was required.

Yeah. Well the biggest problem is that we seem to lack some details. Mostly, we do not exactly know what caused the C&D letter and following shut-down. Maybe if we had all the information, it would be easier to agree (or not).

Cheers

 

[Shroomy]

I think there is a big difference, TSR tried to sue everyone, while WotC sent a C&D letter (and got the content pulled) to a site that was charging for a service that incorporated their trademarked and copyrighted IP.

 

[Morrus]

Hey, I've got no problems with being being proven wrong. It happens all the time. So EN world does take action when they find anyone has posted anything verbatim. Got it.

But I still see very little difference between 2 sites that both attract users using WotC IP, provide content and support for that IP and collect money to gain full access to tools and services on their respective sites. If the only difference between the 2 sites is the use of a logo or the copying of a few power cards, then I really don't understand why a C&D was required.

Having lived through those heady days of TSR using similar tactics to protect the very same IP, I can't help but see this as a sad situation.

"Using IP" is not the issue; every newspaper and magazine in the world does it. The difference lies in the fair use uses which everybody keeps talking about; replicating content wholesale is not fair use; talking about IP and using it in reference in the ocntext of news, reviews and discussion, is.

There's no problem using IP; it's how you use it that matters.

 

[Volcom Stone]

If you look there is lots of info out there

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.emass-web.com

Ema's Charsheets

Sources for Ema's Charsheets

Ema's Charsheets

Response from emass-web.com - Pen & Paper Games

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.emass-web.com/sources.htm

 

[tomBitonti]

"Using IP" is not the issue; every newspaper and magazine in the world does it. The difference lies in the fair use uses which everybody keeps talking about; replicating content wholesale is not fair use; talking about IP and using it in reference in the ocntext of news, reviews and discussion, is.

I would add that the qualifier "in the context of news, reviews, and discussion" helps but is not necessary. From my read of Harry Potter, creating a reference listing all powers, along with the rules information about those powers, and including a text synopsis (not the original text) would be fair use. (I'm not a lawyer, so that is IMO.)

There's no problem using IP; it's how you use it that matters.

100% agreement here.

 

[Thasmodious]

But I still see very little difference between 2 sites that both attract users using WotC IP, provide content and support for that IP and collect money to gain full access to tools and services on their respective sites.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

EnWorld is a place to discuss something. The public is allowed to discuss something. They make money by hosting a place in which to discuss something. If a bunch of gamers went to a pub to play and discuss and the management began having Gaming Night, with drink specials, and advertised it, they are not "using" a game companies IP. That is in essence what EnWorld and other forums do. A company cannot tell people that they are not allowed to meet somewhere and discuss their products. That some of that discussion will involved IP is a part of well established Fair Use guidelines.

The difference is that a website like Ema's (which I loved, used throughout 3e, donated to on several occasions, and wish to offer thanks to for the years of awesome support) was providing services which included the direct presentation of copywrited material in exchange for money. You can't do that. Providing a place to gather and discuss a game, or a sports team, or a movie, even charging for it, is not close to the same thing. It's not splitting hairs. The difference is well established, logically and legally.

 

[The Little Raven]

So, I must ask, do you consider ENWorld a fan site or a business?

I consider ENWorld to be a business. A legally sound one, because ENWorld doesn't provide another company's IP to its customers in violation of that company's IP rights, so it isn't even comparable to a site that does.

 

[The Little Raven]

That's why this event has those of who were around for the TSR/Rob Repp fracas are just a bit spooked by this.

Not all of us. I received a cease and desist letter when I was 13 years old from TSR about "copyright infringement" for putting up a small, poorly designed website that describe the campaign I was running for my other 13-year-old friends at the time. Not a single piece of IP was present anywhere on my site.

TSR was well within their rights then.

No, they weren't. They were claiming that phrases like "Armor Class" and such were their property and any use of that was a violation of their rights. They stepped over the line from protecting their IP from being spread around (there were sites that transcribed whole TSR books) to attack fan sites creating derivative works (kids posting their characters and campaign summaries).

WotC isn't even remotely crossing that line, as Ema freely admits he was in the wrong, and anyone who had been to his site can see he was providing WotC's IP without consent.

 

[pawsplay]

The thing is, people don't create unauthorized sites because they are the sort of people who shoplift or hack the CIA or whatever. Unfortunately, we are living in a time where many new issues are cropping up, and we have not yet come up with solutions to how this is all supposed to work. On the one hand, i think just about everyone agrees that creators should be able to make money off their work. On the other hand, there are some real problems with how IP has been implemented. Situations come up that simply don't come up with when you are dealing with real property. If you come up with a cheaper way to make a product, the market adjusts, and if I wanted to loan someone a shovel I own, that's not a problem. But no one has been able to come up with an adjustment to deal with the ease with which electronic copies can be generated. Most of our current IP laws are written in the interest of powerful corporations who are trying to retain a traditional control over their IP. It isn't working, but that is how business has always been done.

So you end up with a situation where you have people on both sides who have no intention of being villains, but in order to assert their interests, end up in conflict.

 

[dinelendarkstar]

... I stopped using his sheets at about the same time [go figger] I started playing Castles & Crusades. My group is back into 3.x for the time being, but I'm using HeroForge again and the rest of the group is either using PCGen or pen & paper.

Man, I wonder what HeroForge is up to...

www.heroforgesoftware.com

We are still here... for now