Another Cease and Desist Letter: 4E Powercards

[GMforPowergamers]

What I don't get is the mentality of certain customers of always viewing the world through the business-oriented lens of the supplier (WotC in this case). I may understand and appreciate their point of view, but to blindly support it even where it may cost me more money, give me fewer choices, etc. makes no sense to me from a customer's point of view. And except for those on the WotC payroll, at the end of the day we're all customers.

let me tell you why I side with WotC...3 reasons from least important to most...

1) I feel that they need defending, I hate all the mud being slung there way
2) I dislike illigal activaty being glorfied...I hate when people say prostitution is a victomless crime...or that Pot isn't real drugs, or that power cards are not IP theift and piracy...
3) 12 years ago I watched as the big dog in the RPG companies was delt some bad blows...almost fatal (TSR), and that would have ment no new D&D items...at the time I didn't think there would be a 3rd edtion, but was worried about my fav two magazines... When that happened I realized if D&D went down the next big company was (and still is ) White Wolf, and I can not see them filling TSRs shoes (not then not now)...When WotC bought TSR in 99 I was the only of my friends relived...they all thought they would turn D&D into magic the gathering...But I saw something...my fav game living and getting a second chance...I was a big supporter, and still am becuse I NEED WotC to do well...


You see when WotC does what is in there best intrest they do what is in my best intrest...becuse it helps keep D&D alive and well.

If my Cable company goes out of buisness I will not have no cable, someone will buy it and keep charging us for cable, so I don't care if Comcast stays in buisness or not...same with Dell Computers if they drop someone will make computers still...

If WotC fails, or if they drop 4e(lets be honnest magic is still going strong) then I lose...I lose my new source books and magazines and settings. And I feel (with no real evidance just a feeling) that the whole RPG comunity would take a hit...maybe a fatal one.

The other companies I like: Mongoose, Green Roninin, Palladium, Goodman, Necromancer... I don't think any of them can fill a void that Wotc would create...

you see it as:

What I don't get is the mentality of certain customers of always viewing the world through the business-oriented lens of the supplier (WotC in this case). I may understand and appreciate their point of view, but to blindly support it even where it may cost me more money, give me fewer choices, etc. makes no sense to me from a customer's point of view. And except for those on the WotC payroll, at the end of the day we're all customers.

but I don't see there best and our best as exclusive...I want Mike Mearls and Scott Rouse, and Bill Saversek(I can't spell his name) to still have jobs next year...I want them to work on PHBIII, and IV, and V and VI...and I want to see 5e and 6e...I hope in 2028 to be enjoying D&D 7e, and to be on these boards (yes morris I want to still be on enworld with my holo vid projector interface thingies) having this discussion again...

 

[SteveC]

I'm wondering, and I must admit to not having read the entire thread because of how angry it's likely to make me, if the first contact the website owner had from WotC was the Cease and Desist letter. Did they attempt to get them to take the content down by simply asking first? That would say a lot to me about the nature of this situation.

As it stands, I'd say this smacks of...well it smacks of something that I can't say here without violating the Eric's Grandma rule.

I will say that much if not all of this problem could have been eliminated with an actual written policy on fan websites. Seriously: in the time it took to draft the Cease and Desist an actual policy could have been drafted and posted which would eliminate the vast number of cases where it is an issue. As it stands now, this really sounds like the beginnings of an adversarial relationship with the fans that is not in WotC's best interest.

I have used a number of these sites to generate cards for my use, based on books I've purchased. Even with that, I had planned to purchase the official cards when they came out because they're a fantastic idea that makes gaming better for me. Will I do that anymore? No. I'll just make my own homebrew cards and call it a day. And I'm not the only person who will do this. WotC needs some major damage control on this issue: I don't envy Scott's job in the next few weeks!

--Steve

 

[Murad]

wizards of the coast is very bad. they no care for customer. they like imperialist to conquer the world.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I'm wondering, and I must admit to not having read the entire thread because of how angry it's likely to make me,

Then I'd suggest you read more of the thread. It's a pretty cut-n-dried case, and I don't think it's shaping up to be a PR issue of any kind. It's not even something that needs a fan site policy to cover in this instance.

I mean, if an author publishes a book of short stories, does he need a fan site policy to let people know not to put all, or even half, the stories up on their sites for free download?

I'm fairly certain the fan site policy, when it does get completed, will be pretty liberal, mainly with the caveat "Don't put big chunks of our published material up!"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm wondering, and I must admit to not having read the entire thread because of how angry it's likely to make me, if the first contact the website owner had from WotC was the Cease and Desist letter. Did they attempt to get them to take the content down by simply asking first? That would say a lot to me about the nature of this situation.

you do realize all they did was send a form letter telling him to take it down...or in your own words

attempt to get them to take the content down by simply asking first?

what do you think a C&D letter is???

As it stands, I'd say this smacks of...well it smacks of something that I can't say here without violating the Eric's Grandma rule.

right...becuse they launched a law suit...oh wait they sent a darn letter

I will say that much if not all of this problem could have been eliminated with an actual written policy on fan websites. Seriously: in the time it took to draft the Cease and Desist an actual policy could have been drafted and posted which would eliminate the vast number of cases where it is an issue. As it stands now, this really sounds like the beginnings of an adversarial relationship with the fans that is not in WotC's best interest.

first I want a fan site set of rules...BUT that is not needed I know already that if I break the law and reproduce whole parts of books there is no company in the world that will not ask me to stop...seriesly do you need a polocy from the US goverment to know not to cheat on your taxes...

I have used a number of these sites to generate cards for my use, based on books I've purchased. Even with that, I had planned to purchase the official cards when they came out because they're a fantastic idea that makes gaming better for me.

we are in the same boat then...I do the same...and still plan to buy the offical ones (as long as they are good)...

Will I do that anymore? No.

how perfect is that...they saved you money

I'll just make my own homebrew cards and call it a day. And I'm not the only person who will do this. WotC needs some major damage control on this issue: I don't envy Scott's job in the next few weeks!

I really hope scott gets a good laugh at the histaria before he reminds you they did what you just asked... again to quite you

attempt to get them to take the content down by simply asking first?

 

[malraux]

I'm wondering, and I must admit to not having read the entire thread because of how angry it's likely to make me, if the first contact the website owner had from WotC was the Cease and Desist letter. Did they attempt to get them to take the content down by simply asking first?

If only there were some standardized legal letter that asked someone to stop and refrain from doing something that could be sent out before actually engaging in a lawsuit. We could even refer to it simply by it nature of asking to stop and refrain (or other legalese synonyms).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't think it's shaping up to be a PR issue of any kind.

the funny part is that it is..people are making moutains out of...(what is smaller then a mole hill?)

It's not even something that needs a fan site policy to cover in this instance.

I mean, if an author publishes a book of short stories, does he need a fan site policy to let people know not to put all, or even half, the stories up on their sites for free download?

darn you...that is like 500% better analogy them my tax thing...but since we are on the same page I will thank you for saying what I could not...

 

[Scott_Rouse]

The fansite policy is being worked on. I was in a planning meeting today and it was being discussed and appropriately prioritized. I have read the draft and my personal opinion is that it looks very good. These will be guidelines and not a treatise on IP law. The fan site policy will not be a replacement for legal advice or common sense.


The web site in question had approximately 1825 full text power card entries. Of those 1 was a homebrew power. It also used Player's Handbook trade dress and the Dungeons & Dragons logo. The GSL does not allow for this type of use. FWIW, I saw this site for the first time on January 5th.

As I said in the Ema's post this is not a war on fansites. We appreciate fansites that respect our IP and support our business, ENWorld is a fine example of this type of websites. WotC has a great relationship with Russ and we sincerely value this community's support and patronage.

 

[Murad]

The fansite policy is being worked on. I was in a planning meeting today and it was being discussed and appropriately prioritized. I have read the draft and my personal opinion is that it looks very good. These will be guidelines and not a treatise on IP law. The fan site policy will not be a replacement for legal advice or common sense.


The web site in question had approximately 1825 full text power card entries. Of those 1 was a homebrew power. It also used Player's Handbook trade dress and the Dungeons & Dragons logo. The GSL does not allow for this type of use. FWIW, I saw this site for the first time on January 5th.

As I said in the Ema's post this is not a war on fansites. We appreciate fansites that respect our IP and support our business, ENWorld is a fine example of this type of websites. WotC has a great relationship with Russ and we sincerely value this community's support and patronage.

Yeah, you know what? Personal insults aren't permitted here. Don't do so again. ~ Piratecat

I no buy your product no more.

 

[DimitriX]

One of the things that I've been interested in is why some people seem to 'blindly' agree with WotC actions even when those actions, if performed by another company, would gather huge customer uprising. How many times have you been on the forums of a MMORPG and seen people threatening class action lawsuits because some class got nerfed or a notoriety system was put into place for player killers?

I think some of the posts above have put their finger on the issue: this is DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. If we were talking about Conan 2e or True20 or Mutants and Masterminds, then I don't think people would really be as bothered either way. But, this is the game that many of us grew up playing. for most of us, this was our first rpg. This is also THE rpg in pop culture. Most people don't know anything about roleplaying games, but they know DnD. So, when we see DnD go through some changes it becomes much more personal because we have much more invested in it.

I think one of the issues is that some people are associating DnD with WotC and some are not. I think those that associate DnD with WotC (whether consciously or not) are the ones that defend WotC the most adamantly even when WotC actions negatively affect them (albeit perhaps in minor ways). However, the folks who do not associate WotC with DnD (and I'm one of them) believe that the game or something like it would exist if WotC disappeared tomorrow. This belief may or may not be true, but I think it is what some people believe.

So, I think many of these discussions related to WotC corporate decisions and edition wars are just people talking past each other. If you love DnD and you believe that DnD can't exist without WotC, then of course you have to love WotC too. However, if you love DnD and you believe that it is YOUR game and not theirs, then WotC is merely a custodian of a legacy. And, if you believe that the custodian is no longer acting in the best interest of DnD, then it must be time for a new custodian.

This might seem like nothing more than mental masturbation, but I feel that it is important to understand someone's perspective when getting in these kinds of discussions which can sometimes get heated. And, my guess this is why some people will never be convinced one way or another.