Why the World Exists

[Reynard]

At most I'm altering and bypassing a genre convention that states that magic weaponry and equipment is to be found at random by scavenging amongst the dead, in contrast to the genre conventions of other styles of fantasy (such as comic books) where magic items are intrinsic to the wielder.

Absolutely true, but neither style of play or meta-genre is superior to the other. To me, though, the "super hero fantasy" meta-genre is less fun and will therefore obviously color my opinions on such matters. I for one don't think "carries two flaming scimitars" is a viable aspect of "character concept" in the same way that "desert dervish" is.

 

[Reynard]

I consider the difference only relevant for metagaming, not for roleplaying.

Metagaming and roleplaying are not opposites; both exist in any given example or aspect of play. In fact, I'd go so far to say that they cannot be separated, nor can one exist without the other. Character sheets, dice, miniatures: these are all metagaming conventions. Descriptive "text", NPC interactions, funny voices: these are all roleplaying conventions. RPGs are a game genre that mixes the two -- not always in equal measure, but never* one without the other.

*At least, I have never seen an RPG that doesn't include both that still qualifies as an RPG, as opposed to a "wargame" or a "group storytelling activity".

 

[FireLance]

I am not saying that the game does not exist for the sake of the players, it obviously does. (After all, it, as a gaming device must have a pragmatic function. And that function is as a setting for imaginary action of the players through the agency of their character.) I am saying it does not exist for the sake of the characters, as in, it does not exist to service the wishes of the characters.

I'm glad that you're making a distinction between the player and the character, because wish lists are entirely a player issue. There is no realistic, in-game way for a character to make demands on the universe short of wishes and other similar magic. A character may voice a desire for a specific magic item, but from the character's perspective, it would be no different from me telling my wife that I would like to have a million dollars.

If the characters are supposed to be heroes, then to be brutally honest, heroes don't run around saying, "I want this, or I demand that." Heroes say I'll sacrifice for this and I'll risk for that. And just because they find the world not to their liking, doesn't mean they start demanding it had better become the way they want in order for them to do their job.

Again, the characters can't demand anything of the world. The players might make requests of the DM, but short of very specific in-game scenarios, e.g. the characters know that a certain temple has a magic item that will help them on their quest and issue an ultimatum that they will not embark on the mission if it is not given to them, this will not be played out within the game.

Now heroes, like anyone, have needs. They need certain things to operate effectively. But when they don't get exactly what they want that is never an obstacle to action. Nor is not getting your wish list in any way reflective of being a hero. But I can see the opposite as being suppressive of heroism. Getting what you want all of the time does not make you heroic, it can make you a lot of things, spoiled, self-absorbed, entitled, dependent, lazy. But I've never seen getting what you want all of the time make anyone heroic. Heroism is the opposite of being given things. It is earning things, and sacrificing things. You cannot encourage the idea of "getting what you want when and how you want it" and the idea of heroism simultaneously. One idea becomes more alluring than the other, or one idea becomes more important than the other.

So make your players earn the items on their wish lists before you give them to their characters. It isn't that difficult, you know.

 

[Fenes]

Well, let me clarify: Someone who can't play a character that fears death even though he knows that the character won't die is not someone I'll play a roleplaying game with. That's where I draw the metagaming line.

 

[Cadfan]

I for one don't think "carries two flaming scimitars" is a viable aspect of "character concept" in the same way that "desert dervish" is.

Bilbo and Frodo had Sting. Aragorn had Anduril, Flame of the West. Elric had Stormbringer. I could go on.

Wolverine has claws, Ichigo has Zangetsu, Li-Mu Bai had the Green Destiny Sword...

I'm sure these characters would have been just as thematic if Bilbo and Frodo had to deal with Stormbringer, Aragorn had triple claws that went *SNICKT*, Elric had Sting, Wolverine had Anduril, Flame of the West, Ichigo had the Green Destiny Sword, and Li-Mu Bai had Zangetsu.

 

[Dragon Snack]

It looks like everyone can agree with this statement...

This will undoubtedly make some people angry.

I almost didn't read your post because it started with this disclaimer, but I'm glad I did. While I could never subscribe completely to the latter ideas in a game world, I realize you're using absolutes in both cases.

I think it highlights something that had been bugging me about D&D (or maybe just my former group) for a few years. And an honest assessment shows that I was guilty of it myself as a player (although 'heroic fantasy' isn't as much of a draw for me as just 'fantasy').

I subscribe to FireLance's ideals, but something in me thinks that was your point after all...

Of course, I could be completely wrong.



(I really hate 'reputation' points on message boards, but +1 rep anyway)

 

[FireLance]

Well, let me clarify: Someone who can't play a character that fears death even though he knows that the character won't die is not someone I'll play a roleplaying game with. That's where I draw the metagaming line.

Actually, I think a much better way to frame this discussion would have been to ask whether certain game conventions, e.g. wish lists and the presumption that the characters would be facing "balanced" encounters, serve to increase the difference between the player's mental state and that of the character's, whether this could cause the character's in-game actions to seem artificial and contrived, and if so, what can be done to counter it.

It is arguable that when a novice player, who is himself unsure whether his 1st-level character could defeat the enemies his party is facing, says that his character stays and fights, the action seems more heroic than when the same 1st-level character is played by an experienced player who knows that his PC has a good chance of winning the fight.

To take another example, if a character finds a magic item similar to, but less powerful than, one on the player's wish list, would the player's feelings of disappointment that he did not get the item he wanted color the character's presumed excitement at finding a magic item in the first place?

Assuming you agree with the design goals of more balanced encounters and wish lists in the first place, what can be done to make the player's mental state closer to the character's mental state, and presumably, make the character's reactions seem more realistic?

EDIT: Actually, I've forked this post off into another thread here, if anyone is interested in addressing these issues specifically.

 

[Hellzon]

I'm sure these characters would have been just as thematic if Bilbo and Frodo had to deal with Stormbringer, Aragorn had triple claws that went *SNICKT*, Elric had Sting, Wolverine had Anduril, Flame of the West, Ichigo had the Green Destiny Sword, and Li-Mu Bai had Zangetsu.

Well, it's an interesting start of a campaign at least.
(But yes, give Frodo Stormbringer, taking it away from Elric, and you have two vastly different concepts indeed.)

 

[Mallus]

Where did this whole "wish list" meme come from all of a sudden? (My guess is the Isle of the Straw Men...)

 

[Reynard]

Where did this whole "wish list" meme come from all of a sudden? (My guess is the Isle of the Straw Men...)

The 4E DMG.