Why the World Exists

Ariosto

First Post
D&D is a game. It can be just the starting point for making your own, perhaps quite different game. You are explicitly encouraged to do so: "The best way is to decide how you would like it to be, and then make it just that way!"

By the same token, it seems untenable to knock folks for playing the game as it was designed to be played.

Heroism has nothing intrinsically to do with D&D. The reason it includes no player "wish lists" for magic items is that uncertainty is part of the game (as are such probabilities as the rarity of enchanted arms usable by clerics). It's a matter neither of literary theory nor of "realism" but of game design.

Likewise, it is beside the point that at some point the referee must make decisions about the environment. Taking it for granted, how does it follow (as has time and again been suggested) that the referee's decisions must be to make every situation conform to some notion of what's "appropriate" for the PCs? I does not follow; that is a value judgment to be derived from other predicates -- certainly not from Arneson and Gygax!

The fear of "death", its risk each time, is one of the most stimulating parts of the game. It therefore behooves the campaign referee to include as many mystifying and dangerous areas as is consistent with a reasonable chance for survival (remembering that the monster population already threatens this survival). For example, there is no question that a player's character could easily be killed by falling into a pit thirty feet deep or into a shallow pit filled with poisoned spikes, and this is quite undesirable in most instances.
"In most instances" (as opposed to "all" or "no" instances) is key, and is to be taken in the full context. "A reasonable chance for survival" is a consideration not spot-by-spot on the map, or relative to a particular character, but in the milieu as a whole.

Verisimilitude can be appreciated as aesthetic, but its primary function is to provide a reasonable basis by which players can address the limited-information aspect of the game. Again, that is not a matter of ensuring that every player in every situation is able to make a well-informed choice.

It is a game of probabilities, not certainties. In the long run, skilled play results on average in fewer character casualties. One can derive from the books a broad sense of the level of difficulty the designers had in mind, but the number of variables prohibits precise evaluation.

There's no reason one need like that, any more than it is incumbent on anyone to like Chess or Backgammon. It happens simply to be the way the game was intended to be.
 
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GnomeWorks

Adventurer
I wasn't being condescending, I was being self-deprecating (I've spent a great deal of time noodling away on setting creation, too). But you didn't have a way of knowing that, so I apologize.

Apology accepted.

As a note, I'm ridiculously defensive when it comes to my particular approach to gaming, although part of that is the atmosphere of EN World in the past seven months or so. I'll try not to interpret everything you say as hostile.

I accept that, but I really struggle to see the benefit of it. Why hold to one version of a fictional construct when you can just as easily have many?

Having many makes PC interaction with the setting completely and utterly meaningless, which is something I want to avoid.

I like the idea of a game being able to change the world. I also like the idea of being able to write fiction in the setting. I also like the idea of being able to "turn the crank" on a hypothetical mechanical system that would progress the setting forward in a logical and internally-consistent manner.

These three ideals do not have to be mutually exclusive; they can work together and maintain a cohesive setting.

All I said to you was 'objectivity is harder than you make it out to be'.

I don't think that I have argued against it being difficult.
 

Imaro

Legend
Exactly! That's why its ok to change stuff that hasn't happened yet.

Who in this thread ever said it wasn't ok,let me guess no we're all confused and restraining ourselves... if that's your preferred playstyle good for you. Why are you trying to make this a wrong way/right way thing when it's simply a preference thing? I'm seeing alot more... you should do this for a more "fun" game from your side of the camp than those promoting sandbox play

For the record, everyone responded to my earlier post by arguing the hypothetical. Like I predicted like ten pages ago. I'd be psychic except I converted to 4e and we don't have those yet.

Are you talking about the hypothetical situation and thoughts of a DM you posted earlier? I'm a little confused by what you are referring to here.
 

Lord Sessadore

Explorer
Who in this thread ever said it wasn't ok,let me guess no we're all confused and restraining ourselves... if that's your preferred playstyle good for you. Why are you trying to make this a wrong way/right way thing when it's simply a preference thing? I'm seeing alot more... you should do this for a more "fun" game from your side of the camp than those promoting sandbox play.
As a disclaimer, I find myself of more similar views to Cadfan than, in your words, "those promoting sandbox play." (I'm assuming that by 'sandbox play' you mean the "create the world and let it run itself" ideal. If that's incorrect, well ... substitute whatever term is appropriate.)

Personally, I'm seeing the opposite. In other words, that the sandbox proponents are saying a lot more "you should do this for a more enjoyable game", and their opposition is doing this less so.

I'm not trying to say this is necessarily the case, though I think it's an interesting point in favour of 'objectivity is hard'. People naturally associate better motives with those who agree with them than those who don't. The internet in general is a good proof for this ;)

For the record, everyone responded to my earlier post by arguing the hypothetical. Like I predicted like ten pages ago. I'd be psychic except I converted to 4e and we don't have those yet.
Haha, that made me laugh. Thanks :) Maybe next spring we can be psychic ;)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Entertainment

The world exists to entertain, period.

It entertains the DM during the design process.

The DM entertains the players by running games in it, thus bringing it to life.

The players entertain the DM by what they do to it, and the characters they supply as the engines of destruction.

It just doesn't get any simpler than that.

Lan-"here we are now, entertain us"-efan
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
Exactly! That's why its ok to change stuff that hasn't happened yet.

Sorry, but that doesn't follow logically from the statement I made.

For the record, everyone responded to my earlier post by arguing the hypothetical. Like I predicted like ten pages ago. I'd be psychic except I converted to 4e and we don't have those yet.

Or, perhaps, we merely have consistent positions?


RC
 

Mustrum_Ridcully, have you met Melan?
No.

I like to randomly generate NPCs, including their personalities and quirks, because it keeps things fresh and I often end up with character I never would've considered creating with the influence of the dice. I can get a lot of mileage out of random results before I finally have to put my hands on the wheel.Not everything, but perhaps more than some referees realize.Because the referee is supposed to be impartial with respect to outcomes? Because the referee's role at the table is different than that of the players?
I am not an impartial "referee". I am a DM. I want to bring certain elements into the game I find interesting and fun, and I usually expect that they will also interest my players and bring them fun, too. (If I find that what I thought might be fun or interesting is not, I will also try to change things, because I don't think I can have fun when the players don't have it. In my group, that probably wouldn't fly, either... We like to "meta-talk" about the game afterwards, since everyone is a DM and a player.)

I create NPCs not randomly (usually at least), because I want to "tell" certain stories. I use quotes because I don't really know the story that will unfold, I only know what has happened in the game world and what probably will happen as long as the PCs don't interfere, and I might even have some ideas - based on past experiences - on what the PCs will do.
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
@ Cadfan:

It also occurs to me that, if it is decided that the poison is in the wine, and the PC drinks the wine, that part of the world has been interacted with, and that, should your reasoning be followed through, it should no longer be subject to change.


RC
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
But, if you want to make D&D more accessible and more viable as a product in the 21st century… find a way to make it zero-prep and GM-friendly and more people will be playing it. It's competing against the greatest zero-prep game of all time, WoW.

I think you're laboring under a tremendous misconception here. WoW isn't zero-prep at all. But its prep is all done with the design and development teams and served out to literally everybody at the same time and managed algorithmically. The prep burden, traditionally borne by the on-hand DM, is borne by the remote team and given extended reach by the online structure, both necessary because there simply is no on-hand DM. So the misconception is that the zero-prep label can really be applied to WoW in the absence of a game master in the first place.
 

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