The 3.5 renaissance!

[BryonD]

I doubt this. OD&D, BD&D, 1e and 2e all still have players, even through none we're open. The release of 5e will create a new generation of grognards who think that 4e was the last true edition of D&D.

I don't mean that no one at all will play 4E. Certainly some will. And yeah, I think that it will be comparable to pre-3E editions.
But I still believe that 3E, largely because of the OGL, will continue to hold out better than older editions. 4E will get put in a box by WotC and only the 4E grognards will stick with it. 3E will still be open and doing less bad than all other "older" editions.

 

[BryonD]

Always the older edition will outlast the newest one, heck 1st AD&D has outlasted all the current editions.

I'm talking about market base, not some tiny group of $0 hold outs. Yes, people will be playing 1st edition after 7E comes out. So it will be the oldest of the Es. That isn't my point.

4E wont go into a box, nor will any previous edition. As long as there is a fan base the game will live on.

Publication of 4E material will stop dead because WotC will make it so.
I'm sure someone could try to OSIRIC it. But that won't happen.

The 4E fan base will continue to play their game, even though their game has been put in a box.

 

[Treebore]

Well, I'm kinda a fanatic about only one edition (3e), though I'd be willing to give playing in 2e another shot...

Regardless, what's that have to do with being happy that your favorite edition (or any edition you play, for that matter) is getting lots of (good) new stuff? Yay for 3e! I'm a little poor to buy up a lot right now, but I'll try and get a few new books this year, at least.

Yep, even OSRIC has caused a "renaissance" for 1E. Anyone aware of how many new products have been made for 1E in the last few years? A lot. Which has been bad for me, since I love modules, and there are great modules out for 1E, 3E, 4E and C&C, so I whimper every month in frustration since I cannot afford to buy all of them.

 

[Knightfall]

Don't forget about all the little guys who are doing free stuff, too. Several folks like Raven Crowking and myself are doing complete revisions that are available for free and are OGC.

Don't forget about us 3e fans that are simply creating new v.3.5 material for our homebrews without actually publishing anything under the OGL. My World of Kulan campaign setting will always be v.3.5 and 3rd Edition fans are free to use and abuse my 3e stuff that I've posted here on EN World at their leisure.

Heck, some already do.

Note that while I don't hate 4e (I can honestly say I don't 'like' it, however), I have picked 3e as my edition of choice. It's partly my enjoyment the system and because I'm not interested in getting rid of my 3e collection and buying a new edition that strays too far away from the history of the game that I grew up with.

I'll be one of the first here in Edmonton to buy the Pathfinder RPG if I have my way. However, it likely won't replace 3e for me. Instead, I'll simply use it to enhance my 3e roleplaying experience by taking the parts of the game I like and adding it to my house rules. I guess it will depend on whether or not I can get my friends to play it.

OGL Forever!

Knightfall

 

[Treebore]

I doubt this. OD&D, BD&D, 1e and 2e all still have players, even through none we're open. The release of 5e will create a new generation of grognards who think that 4e was the last true edition of D&D.

Very true, but the difference is that 3E will continue to be actively supported. The GSL prevents that from happening when WOTC moves on to 5th edition. The only way 4E will be supported will be via the OGL route, which Goodman Games has proven can work, at least module wise. OSRIC, and other OGL versions of 1E and OD&D have shown how 4E rules can be supported once 4E is cast aside by WOTC.

The question will be will people try to do it? IF they make one mistake in supporting 4E via the OGL WOTC will jump all over them. Yes, WOTC will do so, to keep 4E from competing with their 5E sales like 3E is competing with their 4E sales.

So 3E is the one safe bastion of an alternative D&D to whatever WOTC does. Even OSRIC and the others have to tread carefully, very carefully, and anyone who tries to support 4E after WOTC moves on will have to be even more careful.

So 3E is the most viable alternative to riding WOTC's coat tails, and the decline of sales at the announced end of 3E showed those companies that riding WOTC's coat tails is not exactly good for the long haul. Plus, if you thought the GSL for 4E was, or still is, bad, what odds do you give for 5E being friendlier versus even more controlling than 4E's?

If you want to try and ride 4E's coat tails you can do so without signing the GSL, Goodman Games and Kenzer have shown two ways. Unfortunately a lot of people don't like buying "generic" over the "name brand".

So if anyone wants to create a viable company that can hire and pay regular employees, 3E OGL is the most stable platform for such a company to do so.

So 3E/Pathfinder is around to stay, far much more so than any other edition, all because the OGL allows for continued support, and 3E is getting that support. Paizo is now the TSR/Original WOTC of 3E/Pathfinder, and due to the OGL Paizo has to share the market with whomever wishes to enter it. Paizo's edge is their history, established customer base/visibility, great customer relations, and extremely high quality products. So they are likely to stay the leader in the OGL D&D market.

Plus if your a serious gamer, and play things other than "D&D" like I do, staying in the 3E market with Green Ronins Mutants and Masterminds (with True20 being a very cool alternative to "standard" D&D), and all the stuff Mongoose is supporting, the OGL businesses are a good community to stay with.

Heck, even my favorite company, due to Castles & Crusades, Troll Lord Games, has moved into Sci Fi with StarSIEGE, and is moving into the super heroes market, horror, and others. They are OGL as well. They are growing, have their own Dragon print magazine in Crusader print magazine, which just grew to 36 pages, and are planning to grow to 48 pages in a year or two. Plus their support for C&C continues to grow with awesome stuff like the forthcoming "Of Gods and Monsters" written by the lead author of "Legends and Lore", who is also Editor in Chief of Crusader, James Ward.

Plus the CKG will finally be out by the next GenCon. They are also putting out modules almost monthly now.

So yes, the OGL is a very good gaming market/community to be in. I just wish my finances allowed me to buy it all.

 

[ProfessorPain]

I dunno, it still seems like putting off the inevitable: 3.5 entering the closet of older versions of D&D with a slowly dwindling (and graying) fan base. The main problem for it being that any new blood that comes in will play the newest edition of D&D, which is 4e--or at least the vast majority will (sure, some will join Pathfinder groups, but most who come in will buy what is on the shelves at Borders or B&N, and that is 4e). The only hope for 3.5 actually significantly growing again is if Pathfinder really takes off and starts its own "lineage", even with later editions (just imagine the hoopla when Pathfinder 2ed comes out in a few years!). The idea of a popular 2nd fiddle fantasy RPG interests me--none, over the years, have really succeeded beyond cult status (Rolemaster, Runequest, Ars Magica, etc)--and I think Pathfinder has a chance to do it. But it would have to pull of a hat-trick of taking on its own identity and staying close to D&D-feel, both at the same time.

The point being, for an RPG (or any commodity, really) to thrive in any way, it has to grow. It cannot just maintain, because maintaining is stagnation and stagnation leads to gradually decay. While I currently play and enjoy 4e (with some qualms, which I hope to houserulify eventually), I would like to see Pathfinder succeed: Not only am I intrigued by the idea of how a 2nd fiddle fantasy RPG would effect D&D (maybe serve to make it even better?), but I love the idea that there are a diversity of versions being played. However, I get the sense that this recent "Renaissance" is more of a re-balancing; it is the "backwash" of folks who tried and didn't like 4e. That is nice in the short-term, and will lead to a lot of Pathfinder sales, but eventually the question has to be asked: Where are the new players going to come from? Let's say that 10% of 4e converts re-converted to 3.5/Pathfinder; that's a nice chunk of cash to spend, but it probably won't grow larger unless Paizo sells enough Pathfinder and invests in getting it into B&N and Borders.

I am curious if anyone knows what percentage of active D&D players switched to 4e and stayed, and how that compares to the other edition changes. My guess is that it is a smaller percentage than with 3e, although still the majority and perhaps greater in number.

I don't think this is the case at all. AD&D came out in 1977, and 2nd edition was released in 89. Both systems were very similar; unlike the jump from 2e to 3e or 3e to 4e. It was easy to switch from a 1e campaign to a 2e campaign. This represents a 22 year period, with little growth in the core mechancis; but it continued to be popular till the late 90s; and much of its decline has as much to do with poor book keeping and management more than stagnation. I do think 3e was a needed change; but I had hoped to see a similar period of stability. The problem with Changing from 3.0 to 3.5 in five years, and then changing over completely to 4E just a few years later, is it is too much growth and change. The biggest problem with 3E wasn't a lack of growth, it was the number of really bad books Wizards was releasing and rehashing to support it. The last string of Splat material was so over run with typos, ommissions and meaningless advice, the only reason to by them was to break the system. If anything, 3E needed to be more moderate in its development; and supply gamers with supplements that added to the game, but didn't break it mechanically.

There is something to be said for having a steady system that everyone knows the rules for, and it isn't stagnation, its stability. This helps the hobby grow. Releasing new editions every few years, fragments the community, as we have seen with the release of 4E. I am not saying 4E should never been released. But for me, it was way too soon. I had just finished updating my splat books to 3.5, and then they announced a new edition; an edition which required purchasing a new PHB each year to stay current with. Had it come out in 5-10 years, I would have been much more open-minded to the idea. But I would be lying, if I said a little resentment didn't creep into my evaluation of the new edition.

 

[Mark]

The "Kill clause" of the SRD that will make it really hard to publish 4e when 5e comes out.

5E will make 4E obsolete in a way that 4E (and even 5E) cannot make 3.5E obsolete.

 

[Andre]

Small publisher Myth Merchant Press has released a big hit with SORD, the document that reorganizes 3.5 combat rules into such a great layout that they guarantee it'll shave 10-15 minutes off your combats (and for you Pathfinder Beta players, check out SORD Plus 1.0).

You know, looking at SORD, I am instantly reminded why I stopped playing 3E - too darn complicated. To paraphrase Tolkien, "A million rules to rule them all, A million rules to find them, A million rules to bring them all and in the darkness bind them."

Now if someone will release a version of the rules that is significantly simplified, but mostly backwards compatible, I could see getting hooked all over again. Not sure if it's really possible - so much of 3E is tightly integrated, so taking things out creates all sorts of ripples. But that's why I'd be willing to pay for someone else to figure out how.

(And before anyone suggests it, I tried C&C. It's not 3E Lite. C&C is its own animal that also happens to use simpler d20 rules. Unfortunately, I want 3E Lite, not the game C&C is. YMMV)

 

[Treebore]

(And before anyone suggests it, I tried C&C. It's not 3E Lite. C&C is its own animal that also happens to use simpler d20 rules. Unfortunately, I want 3E Lite, not the game C&C is. YMMV)

Then I would have to say you weren't willing to play with C&C enough to make it into 3E lite. Its not hard to do. In fact if you come to the TLG boards, or look through links on cncplayer.net you'll find house rules documents that are various iterations of "3E lite". If they are too lite for you they will at least give you the ground work so you'll only have to add what you want. Which will be less than starting from ground zero.

C&C cannot be "3E lite" for legal reasons, but it is easy enough to turn it into 3E lite if your good at creating your own house rules. Especially since you can copy and paste a lot of the rules from the online SRD and create your own documents. Buy the C&C PH in PDF and you can create your own complete books via cut/paste.

 

[scruffygrognard]

I think the challenge for 3pps that continue to support 3.x/Pathfinder will be to come out with products that innovate rather than re-do. I also think we have enough races, monsters, classes, feats, and prestige classes.

Campaign settings, adventures, DM aides, and rules tweaks that speed up or enhance the game (without sacrificing options ) are what I'm looking for now.

Exactamundo! Couldn't have said it better myself.