Forked from: So, about Expertise...
From the Expertise thread, I wanted to see if AngryPurpleCyclop's hard encounter would really challenge a group of 22nd level PCs. I had heard that higher level play was not as overwhelming as some people claimed, so I set the stage here to see if this were true. I especially wanted to see if not having the Expertise feat would result in a high level TPK from a hard challenge, or if the challenge would not be that overwhelming, or somewhere in between.
I purposely combat gimped the PCs in some ways as listed below. My friend who is not a 4E geek (but has played the game) ran the PCs, I ran the monsters.
I used the following guidelines:
1) PCs used the standard array, hence, no PC has a starting stat above 18, but I gave each PC a starting stat of 18 in the main ability score.
2) When the PC had ability score gains, I bumped up the main ability score and another ability score that would benefit a Defense and the class. I alternated between the second and third ability for this so that both the secondary and tertiary ability scores increased by 4 by level 21.
3) I picked relatively standard equipment for level one.
4) I picked the races for each class straight from the default samples in Character Builder. I picked a Dwarven Cleric, a Human Fighter, a Half Elf Paladin, a Halfling Rogue, and an Eladrin Wizard.
5) I only allowed powers, items, feats, and Paragon Paths in the PHB. No other source was used.
6) The Paragon Paths I picked did not give a constant bonus to attack rolls such as a Kensai, nor did they constantly give multiple attack rolls like a Divine Oracle. The idea here is to see if the synergy bonuses in the game system are sufficient without purposely picking to hit abilities (such as Expertise). I gave Archmage to the Wizard, Deadly Trickster to the Paladin and the Rogue, but the Cleric and Fighter were stuck with Eternal Seeker which gave them no significant benefits since I did not hand out Demigod in order to not give the bonus to the ability scores.
7) I randomly picked all powers with the exception of the first level starting powers which I used as per the PHB suggestions (and I explicitly picked Eyebite for the Paladin as a Half Elf). If a power did not match (like a Str power for the Cha Paladin), I randomly picked again until I got one that matched the PC. When it became time to replace a lower level power with a higher level power, I always replaced the lowest level power.
8) I randomly picked all feats with the exception of the first level starting feats which I used as per the PHB suggestions. If the feat could reasonably be taken by the PC, I kept it, even if it were not a combat feat. I did not allow multiclassing feats. I only allowed Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus once each (as if it were one feat) in the random selection. Skill Training was one feat for each untrained skill, but I only allowed a PC to have it once. Ditto for Skill Focus. Once the PC got to Paragon level, I restricted the PC to Paragon level, Class, and Racial feats. Once the PC got to Epic level, I restricted the PC to Epic level, Class, and Racial feats. I also purposely picked Skill Training Acrobatics for the Paladin at level 2 to get Deadly Trickster, otherwise, 3 out of 5 PCs would have been stuck with Eternal Seeker.
9) I randomly picked magic items. By the end of 21st level, these PCs would have acquired in their careers 1 25th level item, 2 24th level items, 3 23rd level items, 4 22nd level items , 5 21st level items, 5 20th level items, 5 19th level items, etc. So, I simplified this to 5 18th through 23rd level items for each PC. I gave each PC a weapon or implement, armor, a Defensive bonus item, a shield (if the PC uses a Shield), (in this order) and a random selection of belts, boots, or rings, etc. I also made the weapons, armor, etc. as per what a player typically would acquire. If there were no items left of a given level, I randomly picked an item of the next lower level (i.e. no 21 level items left, I picked a 20, there were very few level 21 items, so this happened several times and there are multiple PCs with the same item because of it, oh well). I also gave each PC 3 Potions of Vitality. PCs ran through levels could easily have more items than this.
10) I did not tell the player anything tactical about the monsters (chosen by APC). I assumed that the PCs failed their monster checks in order to keep the player in the dark. I also did not tell the player that this was a hard XP-wise encounter. The monsters were: Doresain, the Ghoul King Level 27 Elite Skirmisher, 3 Fire Archon Ash Disciple Level 20 Artillery, and an Earthwind Ravager Level 23 Controller modified to be a Fire Ravager (I gave it Resist Fire 20 to avoid damage from the other fire area effects). I described the monsters as per the pictures and descriptions in the MM, so my friend was fairly sure that it was one undead and four fire elemental types. That’s more or less all he knew.
11) I started the encounter out in a large room (120 feet x 120 feet) with 10 foot pillars 10 feet from the edges of the walls, and a single 10 foot pillar in the middle of the room. The NPCs were hiding behind the pillars which had torches on them on the sides nearest to the center of the room. So, the middle of the room was fairly well lit, but the edges were darker. The NPCs started the attack from two sides with the Doresain and one Disciple on one side, and the Ravager and the other two Disciples on the other side. The enemies started out about 40 to 45 feet away from the closest PCs or about 5 feet away from the ends of the map. The PCs started spread out in an X with the Fighter in the middle (due to the bonus he gives to Init for everyone), the Rogue and Paladin up front near the middle pillar (the Rogue for Perception, the Paladin for AC), and the Wizard and Cleric in the rear. Each PC was 15 feet away from the Fighter to avoid area effects in such a large room. The enemies were ~30 feet away from each other to avoid area effects.
12) I assumed the PCs noticed the NPCs and started the combat normally with nobody being surprised to make it a fair fight between the two groups.
13) The player was given the instructions to not use a Daily power or item until at least one PC was bloodied.
I set this up as fair as I could, even weak with regard to the PCs. This party is considerably "less combat optimized" than most played parties. I also ran the encounter from the monster’s POV as strong as I could. However, I have never DMed a 4E Epic level, so I am sure that I made some rookie mistakes. Also, I did not double check the sheets created by Character Builder. If there is a bug in the software, I was unaware of it.
The encounter took 8 hours due to the fact that my friend was learning all of these PCs on the fly and I was giving him enough time to read through their powers and such (before and) during the encounter. I think he did a great job considering the difficulty and the fact that he had never before played a 4E PC above level 7. And actually, we never finished once it got to midnight, but more on that below.
AngryPurpleCyclops said:
From the Expertise thread, I wanted to see if AngryPurpleCyclop's hard encounter would really challenge a group of 22nd level PCs. I had heard that higher level play was not as overwhelming as some people claimed, so I set the stage here to see if this were true. I especially wanted to see if not having the Expertise feat would result in a high level TPK from a hard challenge, or if the challenge would not be that overwhelming, or somewhere in between.
I purposely combat gimped the PCs in some ways as listed below. My friend who is not a 4E geek (but has played the game) ran the PCs, I ran the monsters.
I used the following guidelines:
1) PCs used the standard array, hence, no PC has a starting stat above 18, but I gave each PC a starting stat of 18 in the main ability score.
2) When the PC had ability score gains, I bumped up the main ability score and another ability score that would benefit a Defense and the class. I alternated between the second and third ability for this so that both the secondary and tertiary ability scores increased by 4 by level 21.
3) I picked relatively standard equipment for level one.
4) I picked the races for each class straight from the default samples in Character Builder. I picked a Dwarven Cleric, a Human Fighter, a Half Elf Paladin, a Halfling Rogue, and an Eladrin Wizard.
5) I only allowed powers, items, feats, and Paragon Paths in the PHB. No other source was used.
6) The Paragon Paths I picked did not give a constant bonus to attack rolls such as a Kensai, nor did they constantly give multiple attack rolls like a Divine Oracle. The idea here is to see if the synergy bonuses in the game system are sufficient without purposely picking to hit abilities (such as Expertise). I gave Archmage to the Wizard, Deadly Trickster to the Paladin and the Rogue, but the Cleric and Fighter were stuck with Eternal Seeker which gave them no significant benefits since I did not hand out Demigod in order to not give the bonus to the ability scores.
7) I randomly picked all powers with the exception of the first level starting powers which I used as per the PHB suggestions (and I explicitly picked Eyebite for the Paladin as a Half Elf). If a power did not match (like a Str power for the Cha Paladin), I randomly picked again until I got one that matched the PC. When it became time to replace a lower level power with a higher level power, I always replaced the lowest level power.
8) I randomly picked all feats with the exception of the first level starting feats which I used as per the PHB suggestions. If the feat could reasonably be taken by the PC, I kept it, even if it were not a combat feat. I did not allow multiclassing feats. I only allowed Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus once each (as if it were one feat) in the random selection. Skill Training was one feat for each untrained skill, but I only allowed a PC to have it once. Ditto for Skill Focus. Once the PC got to Paragon level, I restricted the PC to Paragon level, Class, and Racial feats. Once the PC got to Epic level, I restricted the PC to Epic level, Class, and Racial feats. I also purposely picked Skill Training Acrobatics for the Paladin at level 2 to get Deadly Trickster, otherwise, 3 out of 5 PCs would have been stuck with Eternal Seeker.
9) I randomly picked magic items. By the end of 21st level, these PCs would have acquired in their careers 1 25th level item, 2 24th level items, 3 23rd level items, 4 22nd level items , 5 21st level items, 5 20th level items, 5 19th level items, etc. So, I simplified this to 5 18th through 23rd level items for each PC. I gave each PC a weapon or implement, armor, a Defensive bonus item, a shield (if the PC uses a Shield), (in this order) and a random selection of belts, boots, or rings, etc. I also made the weapons, armor, etc. as per what a player typically would acquire. If there were no items left of a given level, I randomly picked an item of the next lower level (i.e. no 21 level items left, I picked a 20, there were very few level 21 items, so this happened several times and there are multiple PCs with the same item because of it, oh well). I also gave each PC 3 Potions of Vitality. PCs ran through levels could easily have more items than this.
10) I did not tell the player anything tactical about the monsters (chosen by APC). I assumed that the PCs failed their monster checks in order to keep the player in the dark. I also did not tell the player that this was a hard XP-wise encounter. The monsters were: Doresain, the Ghoul King Level 27 Elite Skirmisher, 3 Fire Archon Ash Disciple Level 20 Artillery, and an Earthwind Ravager Level 23 Controller modified to be a Fire Ravager (I gave it Resist Fire 20 to avoid damage from the other fire area effects). I described the monsters as per the pictures and descriptions in the MM, so my friend was fairly sure that it was one undead and four fire elemental types. That’s more or less all he knew.
11) I started the encounter out in a large room (120 feet x 120 feet) with 10 foot pillars 10 feet from the edges of the walls, and a single 10 foot pillar in the middle of the room. The NPCs were hiding behind the pillars which had torches on them on the sides nearest to the center of the room. So, the middle of the room was fairly well lit, but the edges were darker. The NPCs started the attack from two sides with the Doresain and one Disciple on one side, and the Ravager and the other two Disciples on the other side. The enemies started out about 40 to 45 feet away from the closest PCs or about 5 feet away from the ends of the map. The PCs started spread out in an X with the Fighter in the middle (due to the bonus he gives to Init for everyone), the Rogue and Paladin up front near the middle pillar (the Rogue for Perception, the Paladin for AC), and the Wizard and Cleric in the rear. Each PC was 15 feet away from the Fighter to avoid area effects in such a large room. The enemies were ~30 feet away from each other to avoid area effects.
12) I assumed the PCs noticed the NPCs and started the combat normally with nobody being surprised to make it a fair fight between the two groups.
13) The player was given the instructions to not use a Daily power or item until at least one PC was bloodied.
I set this up as fair as I could, even weak with regard to the PCs. This party is considerably "less combat optimized" than most played parties. I also ran the encounter from the monster’s POV as strong as I could. However, I have never DMed a 4E Epic level, so I am sure that I made some rookie mistakes. Also, I did not double check the sheets created by Character Builder. If there is a bug in the software, I was unaware of it.
The encounter took 8 hours due to the fact that my friend was learning all of these PCs on the fly and I was giving him enough time to read through their powers and such (before and) during the encounter. I think he did a great job considering the difficulty and the fact that he had never before played a 4E PC above level 7. And actually, we never finished once it got to midnight, but more on that below.
