Fighters didn't matter after 11th level?

IThis means that we have a monster that would have won a straight up fight vs. my character if not for healing from another PC, which has now been reanimated with significantly more HP (zombies get 2x the base creatures HD, plus the HD are increased to d12s), an AC bonus, higher BAB, increased Str, DR, darkvision and (in most cases) better saves. In other words, the Wizard just created (for the low, low price of 500gp) a "tank" that was already slightly tougher than my character while alive and leaves him completely in the dust as an animated undead creature.

So the Wizard, using a single spell that wasn't even of the highest level he could cast, essentially rendered my entire contribution to the combat effectiveness of the party redundant. Oh but wait, that's not the whole story. You see, he'd memorized Raise Dead twice that day, and since a 2nd Gray Render would put him at exactly the HD of undead he could control at his level (40HD total) he did it again.

Undead hit dice are crappy. There is no way the gray render comes close to a fighter in terms of fighting ability. Plus, feats, right? Fighters have them, gray renders don't. Zombies are stupid... in the world I would like to live in, fighters are capable of tactical decision making, even artists. Rather than making the fighter redundant, the wizard has duplicated part of the fighter's job (absorb damage, hit hard), enhancing the fighter's ability to melee by relieving him of doorstop duty and allowing him to choose when and how to use himself as a living shield.

If a cleric summons a fire elemental, I'm not going to suddenly claim the wizard is redundant and should go home because elemental damage dealing is covered.

It's true, fighters suck at logistics. But they are good at so many things when it comes to combat. A fighter can reasonably be expected to deal top end damage in melee, perform adequately as a ranged combatant, absorb tons of hit point damage, and shrug off negative levels... all in one build. And you lose very little fighter-ness if you want to add a single level of anything else. Take a single level of Cleric with the Magic domain, and suddenly, you can use most magic items.

Rogues? At the levels at which their lockpicking and trap disarming abilities are becoming less relevant because of the vast availability of magic, rogues can develop an extremely respectable Use Magic Device ability, letting them double up virtually any casting roll you like. Rogues can, in fact, create their own zombie gray renders, if they felt the need for such a thing.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Wizards should be able to twist the laws of the (game) reality but when they start twisting the laws of the (game) system it starts to break down.
Compare 4e mirror image to 3e's version. 4e gives a bonus to AC based on the number of copies. 3e gave a miss chance. 3e by passes the basic of rule of how attacks hit or miss, by adding another layer of protection on top of the to hit roll.
Both versions twist reality by making illusions but only one twists the system.

I agree and disagree. I think you can achieve the twisting of reality as 4E does, by not twisting the system, but it does water down the effect of magic for some people. Lots of people prefer this, because they feel magic was too potent in previous editions. But others feel that only when magic twists the system, does it twist reality in a meaningful way. Personally, I prefer my magic to twist the system, but thats just my preference.

But fighters can't bend the numbers, that's the problem. They have to obey all the rules like grapples checks and rolling attack bonus against AC while the spell casters can ignore them.

They bend the numbers by having higher BAB, and things like power attack. A fighter is built all around to have a better chance of succeeding on his attack roles. Things are tilted in their favor on things like a straight up attack and a grapple. Wizards can outright break the way things are done temporarily, but they have a limited pool of resources, and a very small pool of HP.

Problems with needing multiple fights per day is that with too few spell casters are overpowered, and too many you no longer have a full party but rather party and commoner with a crossbow. So the first three fights were easy because the caster was able to participate and the last one is hard because you have a commoner now.

If a wizard manages his spell, he ends up with enough to use on most fighters, but he isn't casting high level spells left and right, so he doesn't overshadow the noncasters. This was actually one of the easier things for me to manage in 3E. Both as a DM and as a player when I, rarely, played a spellcaster.

This is ignoring the fact that trying to build in some filler encounters to suck up spell slots can mess with campaign flow that isn't designed from the get go to allow them. Another problem is that spell casters start having more and more power in dictating how many encounters there are in a day with spells like rope trick and teleport.

Well, most things in the game operate this way. You construct encounters based on what will be challenging and fun for the party. It really doesn't take many to force a wizard to expend high level spells. If you are throwing monsters at them, that require a mix of spells and steal, things usually work out okay. It isn't just the number of encounters, it is the nature of and construction of encounters as well.

Teleport is a tricky spell. But there is still a chance of a mishap. If players are delving into a dungeon, that is a place they have at best "Seen Casually" or "Viewed Once" (12% chance of off target or mishap, 23% chance of off target or mishap). And they can only teleport to places they know. They can't just teleport past the dragon and into the villain's secret lair, if they don't know where it is. It is still a potent spell, but like most spells, you need to pay careful attention to the text.
 

So I concede you point here, but I think it is easily remedied by not handing out tons of wands, staffs, etc to wizards, who are already uber powerful. Yes, spell increase in potency and length with level, but they still have a limited number per day, and I promise you if you throw the right encounters at them, things tend to balance out more.
Unfortunately, casters can make their own magic items (and IME, often did, at least for wands and scrolls). I fail to see how changing the encounter make-up is going to level the playing field. Anything that will challenge the casters more is also going to challenge the non-casters more. My experience was that most non-casters were already on the ragged edge of keeping up when encounters were moderately challenging to casters. Simple making encounters tougher or longer just meant PCs (almost always the frontline melee characters) started dying.

What I am saying is DMs who manage events better, and know the system, can ensure hat fighters still contribute in a meaningful way.
I agree with this, although IMO it really comes down to the players who are running the casters rather than the DM unless the DM does some heavy house-ruling regarding what spells and class abilities are allowable. For a while in 3.5, I was playing a Druid with a bear companion. It became obvious that my bear was "stealing" fun from the party's Fighter. The Fighter wanted to kick butt in melee but anything within the realm of challenging (i.e. wouldn't wipe the floor with him the first round) for him was quickly dispatched by my buffed bear companion within a round or two. So, I retired that character and played something else. We all play the game for different reasons, but most people enjoy the rolling dice and killing stuff part of the game to some extent and my Druid character was very simply taking away opportunities from the Fighter's player to do those things and transferring them to me via the animal companion. To me, it was a major flaw that part of the "point" of the Druid class in 3e was the animal companion and the result of it was this unfair transfer of fun.
 
Last edited:

Unfortunately, casters can make their own magic items (and IME, often did, at least for wands and scrolls). I fail to see how changing the encounter make-up is going to level the playing field. Anything that will challenge the casters more is also going to challenge the non-casters more. My experience was that most non-casters were already on the ragged edge of keeping up when encounters were moderately challenging to casters. Simple making encounters tougher or longer just meant PCs (almost always the frontline melee characters) started dying.
If you follow the rules for making magic items in the DMG, it is pretty hard for players to just make what they want to order.

Off the top of my head, Spell Resistance? Something that a wizard's spells don't effect as well will be less of a challenge for fighters and more of a challenge for wizards.



I agree with this, although IMO it really comes down to the players who are running the casters rather than the DM unless the DM does some heavy house-ruling regarding what spells and class abilities are allowable. For a while in 3.5, I was playing a Druid with a bear companion. When it became obvious that my bear was "stealing" fun from the party's Fighter (i.e. the Fighter wanted to kick butt in melee but anything within the realm of "challenging" for him was quickly dispatched by my buffed bear companion within a round or two), I retired that character and played something else. We all play the game for different reasons, but most people enjoy the rolling dice and killing stuff part of the game to some extentand my Druid character was very simply taking away opportunities from the Fighter's player to do those things and transferring them to me. So I got to have his fun on top of my fun, which didn't seem fair.

Druids are definitely broken. I will defend lots of things in 3E. But druids aint one of them. They were broken in 3.0 and still broken in 3.5 (mostly because of splat books). Of course even their brokenness could be handled by a competent GM who injected a little reality into the game. For example, Druids who walk around in Wild Shape all day, jsut in case a fight breaks out. No one wants to walk around with a bear, or god forbid the GM allows, a Dire Ape. NPCs need to call out the silliness of a guy walking around in bear form all day. Also, you really do need to push the flavor limitations on druids. They are the vegans of the D&D world, and this can't be forgotten.

Again, the big thing with 3E is to be wary of player "Wish lists" (because those usually have more to do with broken builds than with flavor, to dissallow broken prestige class/feat/multiclass/magic item combos (from the splats), and keep a handle on magic items in general.
 

But in 3E (and previous editions) the reason for this is to preserve the importance and wonder of magic. That is what defines it, its ability to twist the laws of reality. The balancing factor, is fighters can consistently bend the numbers in their favor over a long period; but the wizards have a finite pool of spells to draw from. The key is to make sure wizards facing the kinds of encounters that deplete their spell pool over the course of the day.
Lets assume that even works in theory. Its a big assumption, but lets go with it.

That assumes that the game can always, or at least usually, compel the players to face (or at least fear facing) enough encounters over the course of a day to deplete their spell pool. This will be particularly difficult in a game with a high degree of player freedom, particularly when the players have a built in incentive to avoid encountering enough situations to deplete their spells. This is EXCEPTIONALLY difficult when they can use the spells themselves to avoid encountering enough encounters to deplete their spells. This is almost flat out impossible if you have a game where money can be transformed into ways to not run out of spells.

I'm not convinced that these herculean efforts in pursuit of a goal that's dubious in the first place are worthwhile. At the very least, if this is the theory, I think we can safely declare 3e and every other version of D&D before 4e to be an absolute mess. The idea that spells will break rules completely, that you will have enough encounters over the course of the day to deplete your spell pool, that you will have similar numbers of encounters per day at level 1 as at level 20, and that spellcasters will gain more spells per day as they go up in level, is simply incoherent. The fact that spells break rules completely instead of just adjust numbers means that many lower level spells will not actually decrease in power as you go up in level.

...Actually, now that I think about it, it could be done if the average number of rounds per combat were to increase dramatically as level increases. But with spells that rewrite rules instead of work within them, creating that effect is probably going to be impossible.

...And don't get me started on the idea that spells that create bonuses to d20 rolls need to grow in the size of the bonus as players increase in levels. That undermines the alleged balancing system of 3e, and is flat out mathematically illiterate unless the express intention is for the power to grow objectively more powerful. A +3 to hit that isn't calculated as part of the underlying expected attack bonus, that is, an additional +3 that's not figured into monster defenses, is equally useful at level 1 as it is at level 20. 4e has mostly, though not completely, avoided that error. Its something that irks me to no end, because there's just no reason for it.
 

I assume you mean animate dead rather than raise dead.
Yep. That was a mistake.

But there are still some pretty serious problems with your case here. A gray render, as a 10 HD magical beast, doesn't gain any BAB by becoming a zombie. He doubles his hit dice but goes from getting +1BAB/HD to half that. So that's a wash, actually. He has 20d12 hit dice compared to 10d10+70, which means he only ends up, on average, 8 hit points ahead of a regular gray render. His strength is only 2 points better. He loses his power attack, cleave, and improved bull rush. And, even worse, he gets only a single action per round (no full attacks). Heck, he even loses 2 points off his CR.
It wasn't my character, so I'm not crystal clear on all the details, but I believe the Wizard had either feats or PrC features that enhanced the undead he created. So, yes, the base Animate Dead spell only gives the Gray Render a slight (+1) bump to his attack rolls due to +2 Str and a slight bump to HP (~10 by my quick calculations). These zombies were considerably better than the base spell. On the other hand, even the base Gray Render zombie is large and has reach plus a sizeable bonus to grapple checks in addition to DR, some immunities and darkvision.

It's substantial to have something like that under a wizard's command. But let's not exaggerate what the zombie gray render can do or what it is. Your fighter fought an all-around more difficult opponent than the zombie the wizard animated it to be. Sure, he can soak up the damage as a tank, but he's going to dish it out very inefficiently compared to a fighter with half its hit dice.
Perhaps he was more inefficient at dealing out damage, but that's part of my point. My increased efficiency at dealing damage didn't really make that much difference to the party as a whole. My job wasn't really to dish out damage because the other characters in the party (like the Rogue and the casters) were well ahead of me in ability to do that. My job was to stand in the front line, provide a flank for the Rogue and give the casters room to cast their spells by soaking hits from the opponents. In that role, the zombie(s) were simply better than I was.
 
Last edited:

Some counter points to Hejdun's earlier comments.

Disclaimer: I am reaching a conclusion that no amount of well worded anecdotes or number crunching or debate will fully overcome any gamers in game experiences.

1. Anything you can do, I can do better.
Possibly true, but why would you want to? One example that's been thrown about is that Wizards make better scouts than Rogues, because they have Knock, Fly, and Invisibility. Yeah, Knock is better than Open Lock, but the Rogue can open as many locked doors as he wants without giving up any resources. Each single locked door/chest a wizard wants to unlock costs a 2nd level spell (which you'll have at max about 6 of). So on our scouting expedition, you're looking at expending a 3rd level spell (fly) and a ton of 2nd level spells (multiple Knocks, Invisibility, Silence) just to do what the Rogue can do all day long. And you still won't have anything that can see or hear enemies before they bash your head in, because the Rogue's Spot and Listen are way better than yours.

The reason casters often have the option of doing this in practice is because of two things; The 2 hour adventuring day, affordability of low level scrolls, and the general ineffectiveness of low level spells vs level appropriate opponents. The Rogues spot and listen are better than the casters, but the casters Invisiblity and Silence type spells are better then most opponents Spot and Listen rolls, so the point is moot.

Yeah, a Cleric could become a better fighter than the fighter, but only for 2 combats a day and only if you give him 4 rounds to cast all his spells first, and only if the enemy doesn't see him glowing like a Christmas tree and cast a dispel magic on him.

Not all CR appropriate opponents are going to have access to dispel magic, especially if the DM prefers to use monsters without class levels.

2. Save or Dies make fighters expendable.
A single Save or Die has a very, very low chance of actually working against an enemy that matters. First of all, CR=level monsters with spell resistance have at least SR at least 10+lvl, so that means you're looking at a 45-50% chance to fail against spell resistance minimum. Yeah, you could take Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, but those cost 2 feats and only give you an extra 20% chance to succeed. Yeah, you could use Assay Spell Resistance, but those burn up 4th level spell slots mighty quickly.

Fair point. However CR appropriate opponents without Spell resistance only have saving throws.

And even if you beat spell resistance, you still need the enemy to fail their saving throw. Again, if you're attacking an enemy that matters, their saves are very, very good. You're only looking at a 10-20% chance that the enemy actually fails their save. So yeah, Save or Dies are great the 10% amount of times they work. The other 90% of the time you're just wasting resources. Save or Dies are really only good for when you're getting overwhelmed with medium threats that you have a decent (50%+ chance) of killing right away before they mob you. If you want to pull off a Save or Die on an important enemy, it'll take multiple rounds of stacking Enervations on them to give your SoD a chance to succeed.

Save or Die spells are viable whenever the player has the means to either pump up the DC of the required saves, and / or use spells that target a weak saving throw. However, the usual complaint about Save or Die is from players, not DM's. Players tend to be unhappy when a single die roll can screw them. I would agree that on the whole such spells are balanced.

3. I can just cast an "I Win" spell.
Pretty much every "I Win" spell is either very conditional, easily prevented/reversed, or has various other reasons why you wouldn't want to cast it all the time. Take Forcecage, for instance. It costs you 1,500gp a pop, which isn't peanuts even to a high-level character. It can be quickly bypassed by a lot of enemies. It doesn't do anything to actually kill the enemy. It's Close Range, which means you have to get in, for instance, breath weapon range of the dragon.

"I Win" spells are generally conditional in such a way that they are useless against some opponents, but are very often going to be quite useful against many other possible opponents. Force Cage may have shortcomings, but it is still very viable against a dragon. Breath weapon may suck, so that just means you first make sure you have sufficient resistance to the breath type before you get in close. Cost of components is generally a lousy way to balance a spell, but getting gold is hardly a problem at higher levels. It may not be cheap, but it wont make or break the players either.

4. I'll never actually die because I have Contingency.
First of all, there's a million things out there that can kill you, and you only get one Contingency. And even if you're lucky enough to pick the one situation that you happen to run in to, it only saves your neck once. But secondly, every single defensive spell you're casting is taking the place of an offensive spell that you could be casting instead. So yeah, you could buff yourself to the gills, but it'll cost you a good chunk of your power to do so.

The simplest use of Contingency is to guarantee an escape given a precondition. Yeah, it can be worked around. But it can still save the caster precious actions in combat. Why prebuff when you can just in time buff.

[/QUOTE]In Conclusion
In reality, I never had nearly enough spell slots to do everything that I wanted to do, or wished I could do, or needed to do. And you always had to pick exactly the spells you need for the day in advance, meaning that every wrong choice materially decreases your power. The Paladin in our group was extremely important even up to the last combat. We'd frequently get into a situation where we'd be fighting enemies who I could try to blast, but doing so would take 2-3 high level spells that I would really like to save, and I'm not even sure if it'll work, and the Paladin can chew them up in a few rounds anyways.

Secondly, you aren't acting in a vacuum. I spent a lot of my time Dispelling Magic because we were fighting something that kept throwing Blade Barriers in the way, or trapping us with Walls, or going Invisibile. At least half of time in combat was spent countering enemies' abilities instead of setting up my theoretically awesome combos.[/QUOTE]

Wizards who make a habit of creating spell scrolls will circumvent the problem of needing to memorize a spell that they may absolutely need but are not likely to use. While there are some spells that are obvious wrong choices at time, some spells are never the wrong choice. Most wizards have a semi-standard selection of spells that sledom change, outside of some customizations specific to the current adventure. The DM will know what the fighter is capable of for most of the adventure, only having to update this when the character levels up. Characters with mutable spell selections are much harder to account for.

You do not act in a Vacuum, but neither does the DM. It is very difficult for a DM not to metagame to some extent. They may not hyper optimize encounters to screw the players (at least the good ones do not do this). But they will often make sure to avoid encounters that they know will be a waste in time. A DM only needs to be burned really badly once to start avoiding things that just will not work. The DM generally wants to challenge the players, and it simply takes much more work to make sure that the Wizard and will be challenged.

END COMMUNICATION
 

Rogues? At the levels at which their lockpicking and trap disarming abilities are becoming less relevant because of the vast availability of magic, rogues can develop an extremely respectable Use Magic Device ability, letting them double up virtually any casting roll you like. Rogues can, in fact, create their own zombie gray renders, if they felt the need for such a thing.

So the answer to keeping rogues viable is to make them wizard-in-a-sticks?
 

Case in Point

As thankfully pointed out by Ourph the zombie grey renderer is substantially worse than a real one. Its probably telling that all those looking at the board didn't realise this or worse didn't point it out.
No wonder 'casters rulez'. HD limit on zombies from animate, no con bonus, dex penalty, no feats, ONE ACTION.. never mind that its a action to command them and they are as able to comprehend complexity as a retarded snake.

This typifies how casters manage to match fighters in games at fighting in some of the games I have personally played. Poor rules understandin, poor DM ship, cheating, ignoring equipment etc. Thats been my experience.

Charm/Dominate/Geas are much the same. Its a chr check to order things and an action... utter waste of actions. Then again if your in a caster biased worls where you can cheat (I REALLY miss those days) then mindless domination can be yours without action without ramification or sensible follow thru.

Flying wizards blasting things from 600ft: thats - 60 to spot.. man I can manipulate the system but a wizard with + 60 spot... I thought Rethian the eagle eyed (Wild Elf Shaman 6 Seeker of the Misty Isle 6 with 'Quick Reconnoiter' from 'Complete Adventurer' so spot and listen were free not move actions) was talented with +35 in a class skill at 12th level: +60 cross classed... bugger me!

Couple times in this post wizards casting 'silence' have been mentioned...

Wizards are mentioned as better infiltrators with disguise self or invis, I assume the DM never has listen checks or sense motive either... then again maybe the wizards with +60 spot also manage +60 bluff as well?

Summon spells have a duration, enemies are often on home ground: not hard to retreat or prot. from evil, DISPEL, or wall off the summoned creatures which wont have items like helms of teleportation.

Teleporting into the big nasties lair indicates a high level... as mentioned by another what sort of high level nasty doesn't have his home under 'Private Sanctuary' and/or 'Forbiddance' ?

Its all seems to be pointing to those that play dnd, an inately high magic world, and yet somehow get all the magic to themselves get to dominate (un-supprising). Where as those in campaigns where the DM plays the world as just that: a highly magic world, its all pretty equal. All have their moments.
 

Druids are definitely broken. I will defend lots of things in 3E. But druids aint one of them. They were broken in 3.0 and still broken in 3.5 (mostly because of splat books).

I would argue that druids are really the key reason why "core = balanced" arguments don't fly. Interestingly enough, I noticed that splatbooks added very little to the druid's power level overall, because the key components which made a druid powerful were all found in core (animal companion, wildshape, 9th lv spells, natural spell, wild armour property).

Again, the big thing with 3E is to be wary of player "Wish lists" (because those usually have more to do with broken builds than with flavor, to dissallow broken prestige class/feat/multiclass/magic item combos (from the splats), and keep a handle on magic items in general.

Ironically, I felt it was aggressive multiclassing by the melee classes that allowed them to close the gap in power level with spellcasters. They still wouldn't be anywhere near as strong, but at least the disparity was less.

So limiting wish lists tend to hurt those who really needed them the most (ie: the non-casters). :)

No one wants to walk around with a bear, or god forbid the GM allows, a Dire Ape. NPCs need to call out the silliness of a guy walking around in bear form all day.

Silliness perhaps, but you can't deny that it works. At lv8+, druids can stay in wildshape 24/7, and unless you can come up with a compelling reason for them not to (say a urban city setting), there is no reason why a druid should ever be out of wildshape when the party is adventuring in say, a dungeon setting, where the only npcs who will laugh at you are probably the very foes you set out to slay. ;)
 

Remove ads

Top