Fighters didn't matter after 11th level?

[ProfessorPain]

I should point out that the gray render zombie is absolutely useless against incorporeal foes.

This raises a good point.

There are two things in 3.5 that really help DMs out. Stacking rules and Immunities/DR/Resistance.

If numbers don't look right. Always check for stacking. My experience is 3 out of 4 times, someone is stacking things they shouldn't.

If a wizard is overly reliant on fire spells, throwing a creature with fire resistance is useful. Also mixing up your encounters in general is helpful. The hard part about being a wizard is selecting the right spells to memorize that day. If you still think spells are too potent, go nuts with spell components. That way, not only does the wizard need to manage his spells, he needs to manage his components also.

3E is very customizable if your the DM. Once you know the system, it is really easy to tailor every foe to your party.

 

[Remathilis]

I've stayed out of this thread for a while, but since Bullgrit want's some actual experiences, here are mine. These are my observations.

1. D&D (even 3.5) was never designed to mesh with a skill system.

There are too many effects that are mundane dice rolls (swim, open locks, hide, heal checks) that magic doesn't aid, it eliminates (freedom of movement, knock, invisibility, neutralize poison/remove disease). This means that skill use is always second class to magic, provided magic is available. add to the fact there are cheap ways of replicating said effects (scrolls, wands, potions) and you have a game where skill users are almost always inferior except when a.) the magical effect is unavailable or b.) required multiple times in succession without rest.

Note all these effects are low level too, meaning when the casters have graduated their attack and defense magic to higher level slots (for more damage, better effects and higher DCs), what better way to fill unused spell slots than with "problem solver" magic? The only time I didn't see mages doing this is when they "purposefully" avoided doing so to give skill users "something to do" (which, even when meant in earnest, still comes off patronizing).

2.) More Casters, Worse the Effect

If you're "blessed" to have a game consisting of one warrior, one mage, one priest, one expert (typically ftr/wiz/clr/rog) the effect is less pronounced than if you have any duplicates or supplemental casters (such as sorcerers, druids, or bards). The more players who turn to casting, the worse it is for the non-caster. It multiplies the number of spells available, adds to the spells known pool, and allows the casters to split the burden of their primary role (nuker, healer) to augment into other roles. For example, one mage could focus on attack magic, while another focuses on summons and divination, and a third on buffing and transport (true story, saw it happen).

3.) The Games ever-increasing need for magic

As the game goes higher and spell slots become more prevalent, magic becomes the go-to for challenges. Why cross a rickety old bridge when fly gets you there safer, or teleport moves the whole party? Additionally, non-casters find themselves heavily dependent on magical items and buffs to remain effective, while casters need very little beyond defensive items. This leads to two phenomenon; the first is the fact casters become the primary "solvers" of problems outside combat (like transport, info gathering, even camping) which limits the screen time of non-casters and secondly fighters become extremely dependent on their wizard and cleric buddies to "keep up with the Jones" among fighting level-appropriate monsters.

4.) Versatility is only a Day Away

This one primarily applies to casters with prep spells; spontaneous classes actually are in the same boat as non-casters (and hence are typically viewed as weaker than prep-casters). Fighters, rogues, etc make relevant character choices twice; at char-gen and at level-up. Here, the select feats, skills, class-abilities etc that define their existence. If a particular adventure shows signs of requiring different expertise (A tomb of traps and undead, for example), these classes cannot adapt, they are fixed with those choice (the ranger cannot change FE:Giants to Undead, the rogue can't reinvest those ranks in Diplomacy into search, the fighter can't trade Imp. Critical: Scimitar for Power Attack, etc).

Whereas the cleric, druid, or wizard can TOTALLY remake thier PCs primary function with 24 hours. Tomb of the Undead? the cleric memorized Death Ward and Searing Light while the Wizard trades Sleep for Magic Missile. This means a caster, with an opportunity to rest, can become dominant in a given situation while a choice the non-caster made at level-up comes back to bite them.

5.) Realistic Limits on "Unlimited" Powers

This one goes back to concepts of "how many locked doors ARE there, anyway?" Most adventuring parties, with no time limit and ample opportunity, prefer to rest when their mage and cleric are low on magic (for reasons that should be obvious, but if not, see # 3). That means fighters "rarely" make many more "attacks" than a caster can. This doesn't mean he and the wizard have a 1:1 attack:spell ratio, but unless the fights are sufficiently "easy" the the wizard doesn't feel he need to use a lot of his spells in a given fight, the fighter won't have a lot of opportunity to "wipe out" all foes while the wizard stands idle. Sadly, the effects of magic has rendered the opposite true from time to time; the fighter stands idle (because of magical effect or simply low initiative) and the wizard wins the fight.

In Conclusion

A fighter is still a powerful class, it is NOT however a versatile one. That is whee casters, shine, versatility. There is rarely a moment a wizard doesn't shine; he can sling fireballs, teleport the party back home, divine lost info, or sneak past a guard undetected. Non caster do not have that versatility and where they are supposed to shine (combat, skills) the wizard can match or upstage them.

Simply put, a caster can do "everything" a non-caster can do, and a lot of things they can't.

That's why they don't matter after 11th level; they stop bringing something unique to the table that can't be replicated with the right spell or item.

 

[billd91]

A 5th lv cleric can animate a 5-headed hydra. Low HD (and consequently few hp), but great damage potential due to its 5 attacks/round.

One attack actually. Zombies don't get more than a single action out of the round. No full attacks. It's one of the reasons zombies are at the low end of the undead spectrum with skeletons.

 

[Runestar]

One attack actually. Zombies don't get more than a single action out of the round. No full attacks. It's one of the reasons zombies are at the low end of the undead spectrum with skeletons.

I was actually referring to raising the hydra as a skeleton, not a zombie. Regardless, the hydra can attack with all its heads as an attack action, so it still can make the equivalent of a full attack even as a zombie (charge + attack with all heads).

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

But in 3E (and previous editions) the reason for this is to preserve the importance and wonder of magic.

Then PC's cant be casters. Otherwise, in the D&D system, magic is not wondrous. Its something you announce you want to do, and with very very few exceptions (contact other plane), you do it. There's no chance of backfire or misfortune. Its something your character throws around on a daily basis, multiple times. By third level, you bend the laws of reality more often than you poop.

Other systems capture this feel MUCh better than D&D could hope for.

That is what defines it, its ability to twist the laws of reality. The balancing factor, is fighters can consistently bend the numbers in their favor over a long period; but the wizards have a finite pool of spells to draw from. The key is to make sure wizards facing the kinds of encounters that deplete their spell pool over the course of the day.

And when the wizard is tapped, assuming he's not packing wands and scrolls, he starts wanting to rest. Even assuming the party wishes to press on, when the cleric is out, the party generally needs to stop. Rope trick was specifcally designed to allow easy resting in dungeons and hostile environs.

For over 20 years now, my gaming experience has been that everyone rests at the same time, so the fighter, in practice, has less of a neverending supply of attacks than would be expected, particularly given his inability to restore his own HP. \

 

[ProfessorPain]

Then PC's cant be casters. Otherwise, in the D&D system, magic is not wondrous. Its something you announce you want to do, and with very very few exceptions (contact other plane), you do it. There's no chance of backfire or misfortune. Its something your character throws around on a daily basis, multiple times. By third level, you bend the laws of reality more often than you poop.

Other systems capture this feel MUCh better than D&D could hope for.

This is all opinion. But I don't think PCs being casrters reduces the wonder of it. If they started out as 18th level casters maybe. But it takes time to get the really cool spells. For me, what makes magic wonderous is what it actually does. The existence of magic is a concession of the fantasy genre. That doesn't wreck the wonder, but it does dampen its mystique (which is why sometimes I do run low magic settings--- I actually ran campaign where all magic except good divine was outlawed). Lots of spells have chances of not working at times. If you use concentration checks, its definitely an issue, and most spells have a reasonable chance of failing or having a reduced effect (saving throws and mishaps).

Every system does it differently. Personally I like how D&D handled magic up through 3rd edition. But the 4E magic didn't appeal to me (though I think the mechanics of the game are beautiful).

And when the wizard is tapped, assuming he's not packing wands and scrolls, he starts wanting to rest. Even assuming the party wishes to press on, when the cleric is out, the party generally needs to stop. Rope trick was specifcally designed to allow easy resting in dungeons and hostile environs.

Sometimes you don't have time to rest. Pacing is entirely under the DMs control.

For over 20 years now, my gaming experience has been that everyone rests at the same time, so the fighter, in practice, has less of a neverending supply of attacks than would be expected, particularly given his inability to restore his own HP.

Well in my games, resting is real rest, you can't cuddle up inside a dungeon and expect to regain spells. Its just too hostile an environment. And as far as healing spells go. In every game before 4E that I played in, clerics always gave fighters all the healing they needed. There was never much concern that the fighter wasn't doing it himself, becuase that was the Clerics role in the game.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

You are overblowing magic item creation. 1) Magic items are incredibly expensive to make to boot. 2) They require time and, in most cases, a forge 3) XP Costs are a serious deterent 4) They occur outside of combat which gives the DM a lot of leeway.

Eh, not always. A wand of knock costs 2250 gp, 180 xp and 5 days. For 50 charges, or for eternal wands, 3/day. Caster level doesn't really matter, since its automatic (one reason I greatly prefer the Arcana Evolved version). It also opens arcane locked doors, which the rogue has considerably more trouble with.

There's a lot of good, cheap, low level utility magic options out there that adds up pretty fast to increase a casters out of combat utility, freeing them to memorize more devastating combat utility spells.

 

[Runestar]

clerics always gave fighters all the healing they needed. There was never much concern that the fighter wasn't doing it himself, becuase that was the Clerics role in the game.

The point is that it seems fallacious to claim that fighters essentially get infinite resources unlike the casters. Fighters will inevitably get hurt in combat (by virtue of their role) and patching them up requires resources (in the form of slots or wands) unless you have access to at-will healing (eg: binder with Beur, ghaele PC). If the fighter does not get healed, he can't continue adventuring either, since he too will eventually be left with so little hp that the next hit will spell death. That will be when he has to rest to regain hp.

That the slots are coming from another PC does not negate the fact that the fighter is still using up resources. They may not be from the fighter, but he is still the cause of it being expended.

If the party has to rest because the cleric is all out of spells, and a large part of it went to healing the fighter, whose fault is it that they have to stop? If the blame is always going to fall squarely on the casters for being the cause of the party having to stop to rest for the day, then I suggest you try running a game where the non-casters are responsible for their own healing/buffing. Lets see who runs out of stamina first - the cleric or the fighter?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

This is all opinion. But I don't think PCs being casrters reduces the wonder of it.

Is picking a lock wondrous? Using a rope? Those have a higher chance of failure than creating an extradimensional space at 3rd level or making an undead minion at 5th.

If you use concentration checks, its definitely an issue, and most spells have a reasonable chance of failing or having a reduced effect (saving throws and mishaps).

Heh, man, no one fails concentration checks at high levels. Reduced spell effects/passed saves is hardly comparable to, say, Rolemaster, Cthulhu, Deadlands hucksters, etc. D&D magic is comparatively very housetrained and well behaved.

Every system does it differently. Personally I like how D&D handled magic up through 3rd edition.

Most caster supremacists did

But the 4E magic didn't appeal to me (though I think the mechanics of the game are beautiful).

Ritual magic significantly helps return the feel. Part of the problem with 4E (for me) is the need to make a bunch of powers to fill a bunch of books, which result in many kind of feeling the same. Double so if you ignore the ritual magic (which are, IMO, the true utility powers).

 

[insanogeddon]

Summons

Ahh fiendish. Thus they become int 3 magical beasts.

SRD: "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."

They have no language so you need to somehow be able to communicate. Even then as its abberant behaviour a intelegence check or 'Handle Animal' roll would be in order. Dfferent DMs prefer different mechanics.

As for eye shutting: its a free action where you can open them again at will (differing DMs let it be a free, swift, imediate action etc). yes if the rogue makes his spot check and notices the mid combat eye closing for a couple seconds at a time then they can sneak attack but that really just serves to balance up the rogue which is all good.