Fighters didn't matter after 11th level?

[ProfessorPain]

The point is that it seems fallacious to claim that fighters essentially get infinite resources unlike the casters. Fighters will inevitably get hurt in combat (by virtue of their role) and patching them up requires resources (in the form of slots or wands) unless you have access to at-will healing (eg: binder with Beur, ghaele PC). If the fighter does not get healed, he can't continue adventuring either, since he too will eventually be left with so little hp that the next hit will spell death. That will be when he has to rest to regain hp.[quote[

They have limitless resources when it comes to attacks; but like all characters, fighters have a finite number of HP--though much higher than a wizards. This is different from having a limited number of spells, or being able to consistently make the same high BAB against foes.

That the slots are coming from another PC does not negate the fact that the fighter is still using up resources. They may not be from the fighter, but he is still the cause of it being expended.

I don't disagree. That wasn't my point. I was saying that is how the cleric shines. They are healers. It is one of their roles. And their function in most parties is to keep the fighters going and give them buffer spells.

If the party has to rest because the cleric is all out of spells, and a large part of it went to healing the fighter, whose fault is it that they have to stop? If the blame is always going to fall squarely on the casters for being the cause of the party having to stop to rest for the day, then I suggest you try running a game where the non-casters are responsible for their own healing/buffing. Lets see who runs out of stamina first - the cleric or the fighter?

They don't have to rest. They just need to learn to manage their spells over a full day.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

This is all opinion. But I don't think PCs being casrters reduces the wonder of it.

Is picking a lock wondrous? Using a rope? Those have a higher chance of failure than creating an extradimensional space at 3rd level or making an undead minion at 5th.

If you use concentration checks, its definitely an issue, and most spells have a reasonable chance of failing or having a reduced effect (saving throws and mishaps).

Heh, man, no one fails concentration checks at high levels. Reduced spell effects/passed saves is hardly comparable to, say, Rolemaster, Cthulhu, Deadlands hucksters, etc. D&D magic is comparatively very housetrained and well behaved.

Every system does it differently. Personally I like how D&D handled magic up through 3rd edition.

Most caster supremacists did

But the 4E magic didn't appeal to me (though I think the mechanics of the game are beautiful).

Ritual magic significantly helps return the feel. Part of the problem with 4E (for me) is the need to make a bunch of powers to fill a bunch of books, which result in many kind of feeling the same. Double so if you ignore the ritual magic (which are, IMO, the true utility powers).

 

[ProfessorPain]

Is picking a lock wondrous? Using a rope? Those have a higher chance of failure than creating an extradimensional space at 3rd level or making an undead minion at 5th.

I am affraid I miss your point here. Just because spells are reliable in D&D, that doesn't make it less wonderous for me. Some systems have a slower, darker and more mystical approach to magic that creates a different feel; but that isn't what I mean when I say wonderous. I mean magic is a potent and really cool force in D&D. That it enables people to do things beyond what is normal.

Heh, man, no one fails concentration checks at high levels. Reduced spell effects/passed saves is hardly comparable to, say, Rolemaster, Cthulhu, Deadlands hucksters, etc. D&D magic is comparatively very housetrained and well behaved.

This isn't true. The DC for the check is 10+ damage if you are in the middle of casting the spell. This can make a hard check for even a high level wizard. I never said it was comprable to Cthulu, deadlands, etc. I thought we were comparing 3E and 4E here.

Most caster supremacists did

You want to have a polite discussion, I am happy to do so. I have been respectful of the other side of this issue. I have even conceded 4E is more balanced when it comes to magic. But throwing names like this at people just incites angry responses. In my earlier posts I said I rarely played wizards. So I don't see how this fits me. If anything, I am more guilty of making uber builds, than playing straight up wizards. I didn't come here for an edition war. I came to give my two cents n the OPs question about high level play. If you play 3E and had a different experience than me, there iursn't anything I can say to convince you. And I am not interested in convinging you for that matter. Play the edition or game you like. D&D has lots of design flaws. But it is a fun game. And like any game, DMing skills get you over the design flaws. In terms of flavor, if D&D is too housebroken for you. Don't play. Play something else. Or if your like me, play D&D when its style suits what you want to do. Play Cthulu or GURPS when you want a different style. Or tweak D&D to make it low magic if you want a campaign with more atmosphere.

Ritual magic significantly helps return the feel. Part of the problem with 4E (for me) is the need to make a bunch of powers to fill a bunch of books, which result in many kind of feeling the same. Double so if you ignore the ritual magic (which are, IMO, the true utility powers).

This is also a matter of taste.

 

[ProfessorPain]

Eh, not always. A wand of knock costs 2250 gp, 180 xp and 5 days. For 50 charges, or for eternal wands, 3/day. Caster level doesn't really matter, since its automatic (one reason I greatly prefer the Arcana Evolved version). It also opens arcane locked doors, which the rogue has considerably more trouble with.

There's a lot of good, cheap, low level utility magic options out there that adds up pretty fast to increase a casters out of combat utility, freeing them to memorize more devastating combat utility spells.

This is true. But then, I would consider a waste of time to make wands of knock, if I have a rogue in the party who can pick locks without using up charges or spell slots. But if it is a problem in your game, something this RP and fluff heavy is pretty easy to manage as a DM.

 

[Cadfan]

I'll leave out the mathematical lecture on how +3 AC is exactly as useful at level 20 as at level 1, presuming that other bonuses to AC are progressed by level as typically expected. I'm right, math says so, whatever.

As for spells like force cage, invisibility, flight, etc, these do not precisely become less powerful as you level up. They become less frequently powerful. Their counters become more common, but the effects of the spells remain just the same.

Thing is, while their counters become more common, they don't become ubiquitous. And since the spells remain at their original low level, and you get more low level spells per day, its easy to have one or two of each potential game-breaker on hand at any given time. I mean, what else were you using your level 3 slots for once you got 8th level spells? That's the natural evolution of the spellcaster. He might feel awesome incinerating something with a level 3 attack spell when he's at 5th level, but once he gets to 15th he puts that level 3 attack spell away and memorizes some combination of Fly, Protection from Energy, Displacement, Invisibility Sphere, Major Image, Blink, or Haste. And for the others, he either covers the needs they serve with something from one of his many other spell levels, or he spends a trivial amount on a scroll or wand.

You have to anticipate ALL of those, plus everything he can do with spells from a different spell level. While also anticipating that he might want to blow spells quickly and then rest, and using the plot to counter him.

And while anticipating whatever his friend the cleric is up to.

And while creating an encounter that's still fun for the fighter and the rogue.

 

[Runestar]

I don't disagree. That wasn't my point. I was saying that is how the cleric shines. They are healers. It is one of their roles. And their function in most parties is to keep the fighters going and give them buffer spells.

Except that healing during combat is for most part sub-optimal, because there are typically more efficient alternatives to do with those standard actions. Damage usually outpaces healing anyways, so your party is better off focusing on killing all the foes ASAP, then heal after combat.

A cleric can do much better than be relegated to the role of healbot. Like buffing himself up into a decent fighter and fighting alongside the primary fighter. Anything but dedicated healing.

They don't have to rest. They just need to learn to manage their spells over a full day.

And one of them is not using their slots for healing.

 

[CleverNickName]

With regards to scry/buff/teleport, well this is another area where 3E failed. The PCs should not be able to scry their opponents and wait until they have to go to the toilet to 'drop in'. It's extremely unheroic and unfun. I am glad that 4E fixed this , as I have work to make sure it doesn't become a problem in my 3E games.

I don't know if it is something your table would be interested in, but we fixed it by removing the offending spells from the game.

 

[Ourph]

It depends on the opponent. You wanted a situation where the fighter shined, and I give you one; now you are complaining that he has too much work to do.

No, I wanted an example of an encounter that would deplete caster resources more significantly than a "normal" encounter without overpowering the non-casters.

 

[ProfessorPain]

Except that healing during combat is for most part sub-optimal, because there are typically more efficient alternatives to do with those standard actions. Damage usually outpaces healing anyways, so your party is better off focusing on killing all the foes ASAP, then heal after combat.

Unless someone gets hurt real bad during combat. The point of healing during combat is to keep people from falling. If there is no danger of that happening, they have the luxury of healing afterwards.

A cleric can do much better than be relegated to the role of healbot. Like buffing himself up into a decent fighter and fighting alongside the primary fighter. Anything but dedicated healing.

In 3E a clerics role is healer, undead turner and buffer. But their buffs work much better if they cast them on the parties strikers. Don't get me wrong, they have plenty of other spells to cast as well. but most parties I see, the clerics job is to buff the fighter during combat, heal him after, and cast something like Spiritual Weapon at the beginning of combat.

And one of them is not using their slots for healing.

In my experiene 3E parties don't function well if clerics don't use healing slots.

 

[Ourph]

If the gray render has the opponent immobilized, is there any better time for a fighter to demonstrate their damage output?

I should point out that the gray render zombie is absolutely useless against incorporeal foes.

The Fighter with a magic weapon has a slight advantage over the zombie with such foes, but again, the Fighter's advantage is miniscule compared to the advantage that casters have over the Fighter against such foes.