D&D 4E Turning 4e into a simulationist game

I agree with some other folks in the thread, "simulation" depends on what you want to simulate. A real world could contain some sort of glowing mineral that makes a sunrod a normal piece of equipment. There's nothing "unsimulationist" about that. It's a matter of trying to define what you want to accomplish. Some sort of plate-stamping technology might bring down the cost of platemail relative to chain. Seems to me that two different "simulationist" campaigns can come up with entirely different economies depending on their initial assumptions.

The primary thing I look for as a "simulationist" is that the rules reinforce the campaign culture so that the players make choices consistent with the NPCs.

For example, if swords and plate armor are the best equipment in the game, then I expect to be able to have most/all of my NPC fighters strive to own such equipment (depending on income), and the players will do likewise. If sunrods are 1 gp each, then I would expect most settlements will use them as lighting.

What I don't want to have to do is frown at players because they make optimal choices according to the rules that are inconsistent with my campaign culture. The exception to this would be if there was some concept of "progress" where technological or social change could improve things - but in my DnD campaign I assume that the presence of the gods means that the current cultures don't have much room to improve in such ways (with periodic exceptions). If a polearm does 3d10 base damage, then I should be ok with everyone in the world using polearms or the rule has to change.
 

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The problem most self-described "simulationists" (including myself) have with that is that the 4E ruleset would make a really odd world to live in. It wouldn't look at all like Middle Earth, Faerun, Midkemia, or whatever world you probably want to play in. In fact you'd probably have to assume that quantum mechanics would govern at the macro scale, since the observer can change the level of his opponents ...

There's never been a version of DnD that I'm aware of that hasn't scaled the level of monsters to the PCs. Earlier editions were less methodical about it, but even in the 1E days it would be unusual for a 10th level party to fight encounter after encounter with a handful of orcs just because the wandering tables said so.

Basically, I think the treasure parcel thing and encounter scaling is a bit of a gray area. I would call myself a simulationist and yet I don't think these conventions are inconsistent. After all, it depends (as has been said) on what you're simulating.

By your reasoning, the character generating process would indicate that no one in the world starts off life a child, serf, or without an 18 in some attribute. If you make the assumption that the PCs are heroes, there's nothing IMO that's inconsistent with simulationism that means the PCs have to play by the same rules as the NPCs.

I choose to tell my PCs that the game is going to play out along certain lines. For reason of inexplicable fortune or whatever, they are playing a character of a race/class/stats of their own choosing. If I wanted to use treasure parcels (and I don't) I would explain them as being a result of fate. Other people don't find treasure parcels. Other people aren't lucky enough to almost always encounter monsters suitable to their level. That's just fate.

My DnD game is choosing to tell the story of heroes with a plausible chance of survival who have the opportunity to do interesting things. In the old days of DnD IME, people would roll up characters using the 3d6 method. A bad result would mean you either crumpled up your character sheet, or had your character kill himself off, depending on whether the DM wanted to face the music or not.

So fate is just a way of saving yourself from having to play through a bunch of uninteresting existences until you get to one that entertains you.

The game is taking place within a certain set of possibilities - the story line/fate/what-have-you precludes that you start off life as a serf, or that a meteor comes down from the sky and destroys your entire kingdom on the first day of your adventure. These things are possible in reality of course, but I think it's reasonable that the game of DnD select, from all possible fates, the ones that are interesting and heroic for the players to explore. Otherwise your character could just be stuck with feudal obligations and having to farm for the rest of his life. And how good of a game is that?
 

Not to be "that guy," but why try to turn an orange into an apple when there are plenty of great varieties of apples out there already?

The gamist approach is absolutely fundamental to 4e. You could add some simulationism to it, but to actually turn it into a simulationist game would require completely rewriting everything from the ground up. Goodbye healing surges, goodbye powers, goodbye everything that makes 4e what it is.
 

lostsoul said:
So what do you mean by "simulationist"?

Yeah, it's a broad term that's going to start arguments. I probably should have been a bit more refined in my OP, but I posted just before going to bed. Bad idea.

Anyways - I see "simulationist" as putting internal world logic before a rules set, and I see "gamist" as the other side of the coin. It's a broad definition, but it works for me. So, to use plate mail as an example, a simulationist game will make plate mail beyond the reach of 1st level paladins, because that's how the world *should* work; a gamist approach will make sure the paladin can get his necessary gear, game logic be damned.

Also, I am assuming a world based around DARK SUN (As I sort of mentioned in my OP). Many of my ideas were written specifically with DARK SUN in mind.

Firelance said:
I think you've got the gist of an idea here, but I think you're conflating a low-magic (or rare-magic) game with a simulationist game.

Yeah. those points were made in reference to running a DARK SUN campaign - and I think they work perfectly well in that regard. For what it's worth, I want a low-magic item (but fairly magic-rich) DARK SUN game.

FireLance said:
Here, I think you are conflating accounting or possibly simulating a low-convenience environment with simulation in general. I don't think 3e or previous editions stopped being simulationist simply because the PCs gained access to spells such as continual light or magic items such as Murlynd's spoon that mostly did away with the need to keep track of torches, food and water.

I'll agree with you, to a point. I think 4e has added some items that make the game too easy in some ways, and drop the simulation aspect entirely in favour of convienience. Now, I think this was a good design perspective for the game's default, but I don't like it, and I'm getting rid of those elements I dislike.

An example here would be sunrods - a sunrod provides bright illumination in a 100 foot circle around the PCs. I can't think of a 1 lb. object in the real world that is that effective. Now, the thing about the sunrod is it makes ranged combat work - and that's great for the game default. But I've found that it breaks believability for PCs to be able to light a miniature sun and then have at it. The way I see it, if you want to use ranged weapons underground, you have to take a penalty. So, sunrods have to go.

Journeybread is a similar problem (and in a survival game like DARK SUN, is wayyyyyy too powerful) - it allows PCs to simply write down an item and then never have to worry about tracking rations again. Now, in the core game, this is probably fine - but it doesn't fit mine.

I don't think either of those items can ever be seen as "Simulationist" by my definition - they are obviously there for ease of play, and their in-game explanations just don't work for me.

FireLance said:
This is a suggestion that I think most simulationists would disagree with. From the simulationist perspective, a normal horse that is caught in the area of a high level spell, the breath of an ancient dragon, or which is hit by a powerful monster should probably just die. The idea of "trading in" mounts for increasingly powerful creatures that are better able to survive the rigors of high-level adventuring seems quite simulationist to me.

I disagree with this one - and another poster says it better than I can later on. The problem with 3e and 4e is that PCs increase in power differently than they did in earlier editions, so that it is possible for a PC to shrug off damage that can destroy his mount. This leads to ``escalating mount syndrome`` where the PC has to keep upgrading his mount. That can be simulationist, but I find that since PCs are doing this to keep up with game rules, that it seems more gamist in function.

I guess I`m just trying to find a happy ground between both regarding mounts - I think PCs should upgrade their mounts every now and then, but I don`t want them doing it every few levels. And I thought that approach would be a good start.

***

Now, since my computer keeps doing this `` instead of quotation marks thing (and I can never figure out how to turn it off), I`ll have to post the rest of my responses later. Hopefully, I`ve given people an idea of where I stand.
 

Anyways - I see "simulationist" as putting internal world logic before a rules set, and I see "gamist" as the other side of the coin. It's a broad definition, but it works for me. So, to use plate mail as an example, a simulationist game will make plate mail beyond the reach of 1st level paladins, because that's how the world *should* work; a gamist approach will make sure the paladin can get his necessary gear, game logic be damned.

Paladins likely have a sponsor and membership in an order both of which should be responsible for "outfitting" him, go ahead and up the armor cost if you want them rarer in the particular world you are simulating. In real life full plate was in all ways superior to chain including having less encumbrance... it was also substantially harder to make and more expensive.

I agree without a specific thing you want to simulate... simulationist is a worthless term ... in a magic world.. that plate might be no more difficult to make than the chain mail (or maybe easier but with extra ingredients required) and they might not have personalized fitting as well figured out as the did on earth... where plate and scale armors would have been designed for just one person.

I call myself a D&D simulationist narrativist ... I like minions because they help me simulate story conventions (though they need some improvements)... I want long term damage results (atleast when hitpoints go below zero) because they can make ritual healing and true regeneration interesting. I like hit points as energy and morale ... so poets priests and politicians can still keep on inspiring and invigorating people allowing them to reach for those deep resources.... I ignore D&D calling it "healing"
 

I am assuming a world based around DARK SUN (As I sort of mentioned in my OP). Many of my ideas were written specifically with DARK SUN in mind.
Not to be a nit, but that should have been your question then: "What rules are necessary to run a Dark Sun game?"

The answer is "a lot" if you want to do it right. Can you narrow down what you're looking for? It sounds like you just need rules for starvation and thirst and to change up the equipment lists. Races & classes for Dark Sun would require their own threads.


I'll agree with you, to a point. I think 4e has added some items that make the game too easy in some ways, and drop the simulation aspect entirely in favour of convienience. Now, I think this was a good design perspective for the game's default, but I don't like it, and I'm getting rid of those elements I dislike.

An example here would be sunrods - a sunrod provides bright illumination in a 100 foot circle around the PCs. I can't think of a 1 lb. object in the real world that is that effective. Now, the thing about the sunrod is it makes ranged combat work - and that's great for the game default. But I've found that it breaks believability for PCs to be able to light a miniature sun and then have at it. The way I see it, if you want to use ranged weapons underground, you have to take a penalty. So, sunrods have to go.

Journeybread is a similar problem (and in a survival game like DARK SUN, is wayyyyyy too powerful) - it allows PCs to simply write down an item and then never have to worry about tracking rations again. Now, in the core game, this is probably fine - but it doesn't fit mine.

I don't think either of those items can ever be seen as "Simulationist" by my definition - they are obviously there for ease of play, and their in-game explanations just don't work for me.
That's fine, this has nothing to do with being "simulationist". A "Simulationist" can be just fine with sunrods and journeybread. Heck, you need journeybread (aka, lembas bread) to "simulate" Middle Earth. If you don't like them for aesthetic reasons feel free to get rid of them, but that has nothing remotely to do with "simulationism" or "gamism".


gizmo33 said:
There's never been a version of DnD that I'm aware of that hasn't scaled the level of monsters to the PCs.
No version of D&D prior to 4E scaled up 3rd level city guards to 15th Level Minions just because the PCs were 15th level. 3rd level city guards were 3rd level city guards, period. The world was fixed, not dependent on the level of the PCs.

Similarly, if 3rd level PCs encountered a 10 HD giant they were just screwed. It wasn't scaled down to a 3rd level Solo. The world was fixed, not dependent on the level of the PCs.
 

First of all, as the old joke goes, this thread fills a much-needed gap in the whole "gamism vs. simulationism" discussion. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen "gamist" thrown around as an epithet, without any real discussion of what it means, and that often leads to a discussion that goes around in circles. I'll definitely bookmark this thread in case it ever comes up again. What's been said before echoes a lot of what I've already thought about this topic. But anyway...

There's never been a version of DnD that I'm aware of that hasn't scaled the level of monsters to the PCs. Earlier editions were less methodical about it, but even in the 1E days it would be unusual for a 10th level party to fight encounter after encounter with a handful of orcs just because the wandering tables said so.

Basically, I think the treasure parcel thing and encounter scaling is a bit of a gray area. I would call myself a simulationist and yet I don't think these conventions are inconsistent. After all, it depends (as has been said) on what you're simulating.

By your reasoning, the character generating process would indicate that no one in the world starts off life a child, serf, or without an 18 in some attribute. If you make the assumption that the PCs are heroes, there's nothing IMO that's inconsistent with simulationism that means the PCs have to play by the same rules as the NPCs.

I choose to tell my PCs that the game is going to play out along certain lines. For reason of inexplicable fortune or whatever, they are playing a character of a race/class/stats of their own choosing. If I wanted to use treasure parcels (and I don't) I would explain them as being a result of fate. Other people don't find treasure parcels. Other people aren't lucky enough to almost always encounter monsters suitable to their level. That's just fate.

My DnD game is choosing to tell the story of heroes with a plausible chance of survival who have the opportunity to do interesting things. In the old days of DnD IME, people would roll up characters using the 3d6 method. A bad result would mean you either crumpled up your character sheet, or had your character kill himself off, depending on whether the DM wanted to face the music or not.

So fate is just a way of saving yourself from having to play through a bunch of uninteresting existences until you get to one that entertains you.

The game is taking place within a certain set of possibilities - the story line/fate/what-have-you precludes that you start off life as a serf, or that a meteor comes down from the sky and destroys your entire kingdom on the first day of your adventure. These things are possible in reality of course, but I think it's reasonable that the game of DnD select, from all possible fates, the ones that are interesting and heroic for the players to explore. Otherwise your character could just be stuck with feudal obligations and having to farm for the rest of his life. And how good of a game is that?

And another thing - and this is something that's commonly missed in a lot of these discussions - all the level and difficulty scaling isn't based on the level of the players. It's based on the level of the encounter. So it makes perfect sense that higher level encounters would have tougher monsters - that's the definition of a tougher encounter. The only "unsimulationist" part is that higher level players face tougher encounters. If you interpret that as the encounter somehow "auto-scaling" to the player's level, like in TES:Oblivion, then yes it seems silly and "unsimulationist." But if you interpret it as players simply deciding what adventures to go on based on what they can handle with their abilities, it makes perfect sense. The only change you would have to make is to allow players to choose to go on missions that have higher (or lower) level encounters than normal - but that doesn't require any real changes to the rules, just different scenario design.

To give a real life example, the average graduate student in math is going to be taking math tests with much harder questions on them than the tests that a freshman would be taking. But that's not because the same professor decides to give different tests to each student in his class depending on their ability - it's because the graduate student is going to be taking much higher level classes. And students can choose what classes to take, so if each student chooses a class that is difficult enough to challenge them but easy enough that they can still be successful, then they will effectively sort themselves according to ability. The same thing applies to adventurers in a D+D world: they want to go on adventures that are more difficult because tougher monsters bring greater rewards, but want to make sure they stay within their limits to avoid dying.

Of course, this analysis depends on the characters being able to predict beforehand how hard each mission would be, which may only be true in certain circumstances. But it's perfecly reasonable that those circumstances hold in many cases - in a world where monsters are divided into varying "power levels," it's reasonable that if you know what type of monsters are in the area, then you can make a good guess at its power level.

And if that still doesn't work for you than you can say the following: The players do sometimes run across monsters much weaker than them, but those monsters either flee due to being outmatched or are so easily defeated that it's not worth bothering to play out the combat. And players don't randomly encounter a monster way more powerful than they are for the same reason they aren't killed by lightning on the way home from the market, and for the same reason that Gizmo states in regards to character creation: we just prune those branches of the decision tree because they aren't any fun to play. Of course if you want to hit the players with a monster they can't beat and see if they are smart enough to run away, don't let me or the DMG stop you.

Also, another general comment about "simulationism," and related to what Irda said. The OP said that "monsters should carry treasure that is realistic within the confines of the encounter" and "rewrite item costs to keep the game world's economy in mind." How do we know what's "realistic" for a monster to have, or how much an item "should" cost? If you say things like "zombies wouldn't collect lots of items in real life," or "plate mail is worth more because it takes longer to make", then you're importing assumptions from outside the game (either from the real world, or from other fictional media) into the game world. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you need to make explicit which "real-world" assumptions you want to adhere to, and which you don't care about.

A while ago, I made a similar point (in a different context) in this post:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...roblem-balance-how-get-rid-8.html#post4657831

(if you can't see it scroll down to a little above the middle of the page - post on February 8, 6:04 PM)

Another real-world example: Imagine a group of people in the 11th century trying to come up with an RPG about "life 1000 years in the future." And imagine the following conversation:

A: "So, in the game, in order to communicate, everyone will carry around this little device that they can use to contact other people. And each device has a number, and if you know the number then you can contact the other person."

B: "That makes it too convenient. The game's no fun if whenever you're in trouble you can just use the device and get someone to get you out. You should have to set up messengers - that would be more simulationist."

A: "Okay, let's make it a little bit harder. Let's say you can only use it a certain amount of time a month. If you exceed the limit, you have to pay extra money. And every so often, you have to stick a little rope kind of thing into a slot on the wall in your house, or it will stop working. And it won't work if you're underground."

B: "Those restrictions make no logical sense. I can't think of any reasonable way such a device would work that would have those restrictions. Clearly those restrictions are only there for convenience of gameplay."

My point, of course, is that just like people in the 11th century would have no mental model of how 21st century technology works, we have no mental model of how magic would "really" work. Or more precisely, since we define the magic system by our game rules, it makes no sense to say that a magic system is "less simulationist," because there's nothing outside the system to compare it against to see if it "simulates" accurately. And even if a game world element is not explicitly labeled as "magic," (i.e. it is not a magical item or a power in the arcane or divine power source) the same argument can apply: the natural laws of the game world are different from those of ours, and the rules are our main window into how the game world works.

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But anyway, here's a good place to start in terms of interpreting things in a "simulationist" manner.

1. The PHB and MM are interpreted as "natural law" - that is, they define how the world works. For example, PCs really do have "hit points" - hit points are a physical property of a biological creature, the same way that voltage is a physical property of a battery in real life. That doesn't mean that characters automatically know what their hit points are, or even that hit points exist - just like measuring the voltage in a circuit requires special equipment, and someone living before the age of electricity wouldn't even know that "voltage" exists. You can, of course, still change rules as necessary in order to prevent broken combos, clarify ambiguous passages, maintain game balance, or add in additional possible actions as necessary - but you don't need to change any existing rules solely because of "realism" or "simulationism."

2. The DMG (except for Chapter 3, and the "Traps and Hazards" section of Chapter 5) is interpreted simply as guidelines for the DM on how to design balanced adventures, and is not interpreted as binding in any way. Things like what types of encounters show up where, how much treasure to give out, and so on, would be decided by the DM based on what would be logical in the game world. If you want a system for helping you making these kinds of decisions, we can help you design one, but we would need a lot more information on what you want your game world to look like (in particular what you want to be different from the existing 4e world-model).
 

I meant to also respond to this quote in your post but didn't see it:

Anyways - I see "simulationist" as putting internal world logic before a rules set, and I see "gamist" as the other side of the coin. It's a broad definition, but it works for me. So, to use plate mail as an example, a simulationist game will make plate mail beyond the reach of 1st level paladins, because that's how the world *should* work; a gamist approach will make sure the paladin can get his necessary gear, game logic be damned.

Upon what basis do you make the claim that plate mail "should" be beyond the reach of 1st level paladins?

Do you have a complete economic model of the game world in mind, where you can calculate how how much iron can be mined in a given period of time, how much labor and materials each suit of plate mail costs, so you can figure out how many suits of plate mail the economy can produce in a year and if so what the supply and demand curves would look like to figure out the price?

Are you basing your claim on real-life, historical equipment prices? If so, (1) how do you know that the introduction of magic into the world (or all the other ways that the D+D world might be different than the real world) won't affect the prices and (2) what conversion rate are you using to convert historical prices into D+D gold pieces, and how did you know what rate to choose?

Are you basing your claim on prices in 3.5e or previous editions? If so, what makes you think that previous editions represent the way things "should" be?

Are you basing your claim on a price list from another fictional source, like Dark Sun? (I'm not familiar with Dark Sun, so that might limit what kind of advice I'll be able to give.) If so it seems like you could just choose an appropriate conversion rate, import the price list directly, and there's your solution.
 

Anyways - I see "simulationist" as putting internal world logic before a rules set, and I see "gamist" as the other side of the coin. It's a broad definition, but it works for me. So, to use plate mail as an example, a simulationist game will make plate mail beyond the reach of 1st level paladins, because that's how the world *should* work; a gamist approach will make sure the paladin can get his necessary gear, game logic be damned.

That's cool.

So why do you want to play this game? What creative/social rewards do you want to get out of it?

edit: So my point of view: Gamism is when you roleplay - and that means consistent settings, real people, stuff you can immerse yourself in - in order to see if the players have what it takes to defeat a challenge. Simulationism is where you simply explore the world, immerse in it, see what a character from that setting would do in that situation; too much metagame (ie. a world that is set up to test the player's skill, like most sandbox campaigns) will spoil it, because the focus is on the player and not the imagined fiction.
 
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No version of D&D prior to 4E scaled up 3rd level city guards to 15th Level Minions just because the PCs were 15th level. 3rd level city guards were 3rd level city guards, period. The world was fixed, not dependent on the level of the PCs.

I don't know about that - at least as far as modules go. NPC guards seemed to get tougher the higher level the module was.
 

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