Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Different places in the world are more dangerous and they 'require' more competent guardsmen.... those that aren't competent tend to die off easier... its natural selection and the ultimate simulation I can imagine....
D&D 4E Turning 4e into a simulationist game
- Thread starter Wik
- Start date
Different places in the world are more dangerous and they 'require' more competent guardsmen.... those that aren't competent tend to die off easier... its natural selection and the ultimate simulation I can imagine....
I view simulationism a bit differently, It flows from taking the rules to their logical conclusion, if flight is easy, then more people will fly. Unfortunately 4e breaks under simulationist concepts. You can buy a potion of healing for 50gp, to brew said potion takes 1 hour and costs the same in components. So no one makes a profit brewing potions? It fails on a basic logical level, people very rarely work for nothing.
Human Guards are Level 3, but the PCs are "heroes" at level 1?
As a game, 4e is fine, very balanced, not much to take advantage of, but that is where it stops, it's not a simulation or reality, it's not a simulation if an imagined reality, it's an advanced boardgame, everyone is equal with different options.
Human Guards are Level 3, but the PCs are "heroes" at level 1?
As a game, 4e is fine, very balanced, not much to take advantage of, but that is where it stops, it's not a simulation or reality, it's not a simulation if an imagined reality, it's an advanced boardgame, everyone is equal with different options.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
See some of the ideas on the thread fun with rituals... there are quite logical ways one can use to reduce the creation costs by dint of effort ... if you buy your herbs from the herbalist... and rent a lab to process them... it ends up costing the same. If you find a spot centered on lay lines and gather your own herbs and have your own equipment, profit is to be had
The game is not about mercantilism so ideas like that are not core... but that doesnt make them a big divergence either.
Hero != Skilled or powerful necessarily..frodo wasnt powerful.
You see when you start talking about "hero" we are now simulating something from movies and books and legend (Cinematics and Narrativist) ... and it highlights for me "minions"
I figure hit points could have been called Hero Points / Plot Significance and are mostly about inspiration, luck and vigor... and at first level a lot of that is inspiration and luck. All of which the level 3 minion towns guardsman or even the 7th level towns guardsman is lacking.
I know the MM doesnt make the guardsman minions but somebody didn't read or watch enough robinhood or Zorro... if the guardsman and bandit are enemies they definitely should have been minions.
And the reason I want minions to have somewhat better rules ( like an intermediate bloodied state and proper scaling) is because I want to use them more for they are highlight point for heros and second wind is also very heroic turning around the fight.
Having minions have a bloodied state also allows me to have them flee the battle when they get bloodied... though before I implemented that .. for some minions negative hit points upto -(5 + level) just meant giving up on the fight all out defense and fleeing the battle etc.
I think D&D 4e has a lot of possibilities to simulate what I want it to simulate... and yes sometimes they do take house rules... but then again i don't ever remember playing an rpg without house rules.
For me "healing" is the wrong word that implies hit point damage is wounds... but that just takes some mental recalibration to overcome... poets priests and politicians each have words to say for their positions (leaders inspire one to access ones deeper energy reserves... tadah)
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Remember, when you buy magic items you pay 10-40 percent above base cost (see DMG pg. 155). So the merchants do make money because if they spend 50 gp making a potion, they sell it for 55-70 gp.
lutecius
Explorer
Yes. Simulation-wise I find the power system (and healing to a lesser extent) much more jarring than the economy. The problem is if you fix that you're not really playing 4e anymore, are you?
As for the OP's suggestions, 3) and 4) may be more "fun" or more to your taste, but i don't think they're more simulationist.
3) these items are typically what you'd expect to find if magic was available.
4) mounts leveling with the rider sound pretty convenient and gamist to me.
I guess they're just different world assumptions.
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Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
It depends on how you alter it... 4e has enough rules that you can borrow from one part and migrate it in to another it should still feel quite 4e
For instance add power re-use rules (inspired somewhat by the monster rules) and long term wounding rules (inspired by the disease rules) and I think you still have a very 4e D&D.
Remember unearthed arcana some of those rules included yup wounds and ways to allow you to recast spells.. sound familiar?
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Sigurd13
First Post
At the end of the day, any RPG of any stripe is a simulation. By their very nature, they are the marriage of a story taking place in a specific setting and a set of mathematical equations and rules to govern 'fair' interactions between the Storyteller and the Player. There. That's my two cents. ^_^
Echoing Irda, Alex, Gizmo and Halivar before I go ahead with some concrete suggestions, I can't stress enough that you have to have a really clear purpose for why you are creating new rules before you start changing or eliminating the ones you have.
Dnd is only one type of rpg. It has a 'default' setting with its familiar characters, concepts and archetypes... complete with it's own unique way of handling the 'mechanics' of player/storyteller interaction. If you're going to be playing with Dnd, then play it. If there are specific changes you want to make, then do so, but try to stay within the framework of the rules as much as possible to prevent game imbalance. Better yet, just change the 'story' explanation. Of an RPG's 'story' element or its 'rule' element, it's ALWAYS safe to change the story element. Doing so allows you to reskin creatures, change settings, etc with impunity.
That said, dont' be afraid to make new rules, just take care!
Keep Occam's Razor in mind: try to make new rules 'fit' with old rules and try to keep the changes as simple as possible to avoid gross unbalancing. Otherwise you may change too much, too fast- creating a totally new rule system. One that has not been tested or balanced... and your players may suffer.
Finally, once you have made all of your modifications it's important to make sure your players are aware of the changes and are ok with them. Don't let them start playing and then spring your new rules on them. You need their informed consent when changing rules that affect them.
Now for some suggestions:
1. On the Issue of Items
If there are certain items that you don't want your characters to have at level 1, then don't give them the option of having them. However, make sure there is a good reason for why they can't have that cool set of armor, or the sword that they really want. Typically it's not a great idea to start limiting character options from the get go, so make sure the players understand (or at least can accept) why you have made this change.
2. Reward Parcels
Gah! I have just scoured both the Players Handbook and the Dungeon Master's guide and I cannot find the quote! Perhaps it has been removed for some odd reason?
Anyway, there is another rule that should be under the PHB's 'Three Basic Rules' heading on page 11 that I will try to reproduce here:
RULE #0- The DM always has the last say in terms of using any of the rules provided in any Dnd suppliment.
What I mean is, the rules, as printed are a guideline. A well tested, well thought out, peer reviewed guideline it may be, but a guideline nonetheless.
When it comes to the parcels, if you don't like them, don't use them.
However, you will still need to have a way to get your characters treasure. This was the purpose of the rule to begin with, so if you opt not to use parcels, you will have to devise a brand new (read: untested) substitute. This is a case where I would attempt to build off of the rule, or tweak it to suit the taste of your setting (low magic, scarce wealth, bones or clams instead of gold, etc) rather than eliminate it out right.
3. Light Sources
Consider that sunrods are 40 times as expensive as torches. So if your character starts out with sunrods, they do so at the expense of other equipment. And they only last a day, so once they're gone, you could just say that sunrods are a rare item, hand made by alchemists.... so they'll have to wait until they arrive at a large enough town that can support a full time apothecary. This is a good example of how to accomplish your goal of limiting the sunrod availability without impacting the mechanics system (not to mention it saves you the time and headache of rewriting the prices of THOUSANDS of items!).
If you're dead set on making some sort of mechanic to govern the limitation on illumination, consider making a new type of terrain or something that makes it so any light sources becomes dim and has it's distance halved. Example:
---------------------------------
GLOOM - a supernatural fog, native to the shadow, that accumulates in places of death, decay or necromantic magic. Gloom is dissipated by natural sunlight (or by a sunlight spell).
EFFECT: Squares filled with Gloom reduce the visibility of a light source by X and the light given off by the source is considered dim.
----------------------------------
This of course doesn't stop elves and other races with low light vision from seeing normally though.
4. Endurance Trials
I think an extremely easy solution to your desire to have starvation, thirst, fatigue, whatev incorporated into the game is to have a daily skill check. You could call them Survival Rounds (or something more clever) and hold them once (or twice) a day.
At this point the character has the option of either using rations to automatically succeed (thus rewarding book keeper characters) or they could participate in a skill check.
Have the characters roll a skill appropriate to the environment to scavenge/forage for food and water (nature, dungeoneering, maybe arcane or religion) or roll endurance to resist the effects of fatigue, exposure, thirst or hunger. Those who make the checks suffer no ill, those who fail lose a healing surge... representing their pain and discomfort from the elements or lack of sustenance. In this way, you can use an established rule system to meet your needs, rather than re-writing or introducing a new rule.
Alternatively, you can make it into a skill challenge, having the party roll as a group for each section- everyone rolls some skill to assist in the party's scavenging/foraging... failing that they must each roll endurance or lose a surge.
Again, make sure that you mention that this mechanic will be in place when you start so that the players know what they're getting into. Additionally, keep in mind that this mechanic's sole purpose seems to be hurting the players... so take care not to abuse it or feel the WRATHFUL GAZE OF UNFULFILLED CHARACTERS UPON YOU!!!!
-----------------------------
Anyway, I hope these examples not only get the creative juices going for you, but also illustrate my point: it is a LOT easier (and more balanced!) to use rules already inherent to a system, or at least based on rules inherent to a system, to accomplish your ends rather than to make extensive revisions.
And always, Always, ALWAYS make sure that any new rule you intend to add is unlike the human appendix- it must serve a useful purpose! ^_^
Echoing Irda, Alex, Gizmo and Halivar before I go ahead with some concrete suggestions, I can't stress enough that you have to have a really clear purpose for why you are creating new rules before you start changing or eliminating the ones you have.
Dnd is only one type of rpg. It has a 'default' setting with its familiar characters, concepts and archetypes... complete with it's own unique way of handling the 'mechanics' of player/storyteller interaction. If you're going to be playing with Dnd, then play it. If there are specific changes you want to make, then do so, but try to stay within the framework of the rules as much as possible to prevent game imbalance. Better yet, just change the 'story' explanation. Of an RPG's 'story' element or its 'rule' element, it's ALWAYS safe to change the story element. Doing so allows you to reskin creatures, change settings, etc with impunity.
That said, dont' be afraid to make new rules, just take care!
Keep Occam's Razor in mind: try to make new rules 'fit' with old rules and try to keep the changes as simple as possible to avoid gross unbalancing. Otherwise you may change too much, too fast- creating a totally new rule system. One that has not been tested or balanced... and your players may suffer.
Finally, once you have made all of your modifications it's important to make sure your players are aware of the changes and are ok with them. Don't let them start playing and then spring your new rules on them. You need their informed consent when changing rules that affect them.
Now for some suggestions:
1. On the Issue of Items
If there are certain items that you don't want your characters to have at level 1, then don't give them the option of having them. However, make sure there is a good reason for why they can't have that cool set of armor, or the sword that they really want. Typically it's not a great idea to start limiting character options from the get go, so make sure the players understand (or at least can accept) why you have made this change.
2. Reward Parcels
Gah! I have just scoured both the Players Handbook and the Dungeon Master's guide and I cannot find the quote! Perhaps it has been removed for some odd reason?
Anyway, there is another rule that should be under the PHB's 'Three Basic Rules' heading on page 11 that I will try to reproduce here:
RULE #0- The DM always has the last say in terms of using any of the rules provided in any Dnd suppliment.
What I mean is, the rules, as printed are a guideline. A well tested, well thought out, peer reviewed guideline it may be, but a guideline nonetheless.
When it comes to the parcels, if you don't like them, don't use them.
However, you will still need to have a way to get your characters treasure. This was the purpose of the rule to begin with, so if you opt not to use parcels, you will have to devise a brand new (read: untested) substitute. This is a case where I would attempt to build off of the rule, or tweak it to suit the taste of your setting (low magic, scarce wealth, bones or clams instead of gold, etc) rather than eliminate it out right.
3. Light Sources
Consider that sunrods are 40 times as expensive as torches. So if your character starts out with sunrods, they do so at the expense of other equipment. And they only last a day, so once they're gone, you could just say that sunrods are a rare item, hand made by alchemists.... so they'll have to wait until they arrive at a large enough town that can support a full time apothecary. This is a good example of how to accomplish your goal of limiting the sunrod availability without impacting the mechanics system (not to mention it saves you the time and headache of rewriting the prices of THOUSANDS of items!).
If you're dead set on making some sort of mechanic to govern the limitation on illumination, consider making a new type of terrain or something that makes it so any light sources becomes dim and has it's distance halved. Example:
---------------------------------
GLOOM - a supernatural fog, native to the shadow, that accumulates in places of death, decay or necromantic magic. Gloom is dissipated by natural sunlight (or by a sunlight spell).
EFFECT: Squares filled with Gloom reduce the visibility of a light source by X and the light given off by the source is considered dim.
----------------------------------
This of course doesn't stop elves and other races with low light vision from seeing normally though.
4. Endurance Trials
I think an extremely easy solution to your desire to have starvation, thirst, fatigue, whatev incorporated into the game is to have a daily skill check. You could call them Survival Rounds (or something more clever) and hold them once (or twice) a day.
At this point the character has the option of either using rations to automatically succeed (thus rewarding book keeper characters) or they could participate in a skill check.
Have the characters roll a skill appropriate to the environment to scavenge/forage for food and water (nature, dungeoneering, maybe arcane or religion) or roll endurance to resist the effects of fatigue, exposure, thirst or hunger. Those who make the checks suffer no ill, those who fail lose a healing surge... representing their pain and discomfort from the elements or lack of sustenance. In this way, you can use an established rule system to meet your needs, rather than re-writing or introducing a new rule.
Alternatively, you can make it into a skill challenge, having the party roll as a group for each section- everyone rolls some skill to assist in the party's scavenging/foraging... failing that they must each roll endurance or lose a surge.
Again, make sure that you mention that this mechanic will be in place when you start so that the players know what they're getting into. Additionally, keep in mind that this mechanic's sole purpose seems to be hurting the players... so take care not to abuse it or feel the WRATHFUL GAZE OF UNFULFILLED CHARACTERS UPON YOU!!!!
-----------------------------
Anyway, I hope these examples not only get the creative juices going for you, but also illustrate my point: it is a LOT easier (and more balanced!) to use rules already inherent to a system, or at least based on rules inherent to a system, to accomplish your ends rather than to make extensive revisions.
And always, Always, ALWAYS make sure that any new rule you intend to add is unlike the human appendix- it must serve a useful purpose! ^_^
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I'm running simulationist 4e. It's a "sandbox" game. There's no plot -- just a setting full of pre-established dungeons, containing "logical" monsters and treasure hordes. NPCs also behave in a "logical" fashion.
There are some nods to the needs of the game. Town is a "safe" area, with adequate provisions, and the dungeons go up in level the farther you get from town. Treasure and XP tend to match the encounter difficulty somewhat. An area that is substantially more difficult than the surrounding terrain tends to broadcast itself by looking scary.
However, the players are entirely responsible for their own actions. If they bite off more than they can chew, or waste an adventure killing low-level mooks, so be it. If they can't figure out the puzzle in the dungeon, or they attack the town guard and get a TPK, that's too bad. I'm not going to force them down any particular plot-line, but I'm also not going to hand-hold them by ensuring challenges of an appropriate difficulty either.
The players agreed to all this beforehand and have been doing a good job of steering themselves towards fun activities.
-- 77IM
There are some nods to the needs of the game. Town is a "safe" area, with adequate provisions, and the dungeons go up in level the farther you get from town. Treasure and XP tend to match the encounter difficulty somewhat. An area that is substantially more difficult than the surrounding terrain tends to broadcast itself by looking scary.
However, the players are entirely responsible for their own actions. If they bite off more than they can chew, or waste an adventure killing low-level mooks, so be it. If they can't figure out the puzzle in the dungeon, or they attack the town guard and get a TPK, that's too bad. I'm not going to force them down any particular plot-line, but I'm also not going to hand-hold them by ensuring challenges of an appropriate difficulty either.
The players agreed to all this beforehand and have been doing a good job of steering themselves towards fun activities.
-- 77IM
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I think this is a pretty valid point. 3e is more 'simulationist' than 4e. Runequest 2 is more simulationist than 3e.
FWIW I once ran a short Dark Sun campaign using the RQ2 rules and it worked brilliantly - I'm not supposing that you will, but if you are interested in looking at a pretty 'simulationist' approach for a DS campaign then you might find some of the basics I posted here Bookshelf - FRPG of some interest.
Cheers
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