D&D 4E 4E with less powers

[GameOgre]

My wife and kids like 4E but hate the whole power thing. They just do not like powers period. They can understand the casters with powers sorta but warriors rogues ect with them they can't seem to like.

This isnt a issue with them not understanding powers or how they work. They just don't like them. They are not demanding no more 4E but instead just letting there dislike be known.

Also realize we do not use minatures in that game.


Has anyone done any work in depowering 4E? Just cutting powers out at least for non- casters and instead letting them just do 2w or 3w ect a certain number of times per or something?

I am not in any way suggesting the game be changed officially or complaining. Just trying to find a way to make everyone happy.

Thanks for any help you guys can give!


PS- They love the other things about 4E. Thats one reason im don't just kick them back to 3.5 in that game. They love surges and other systems ect.. I think a lot of it is that I always mess with a rpg and tune it to what we like but with 4E I have not. Mostly due to the lack of time and the whole powers issue being a pretty tall order to *fix* for them in a house rule.

 

[baberg]

Have they been specific about what they dislike? Is it the flavor text? Is it the "magic-y" abilities that martial characters get? Is it that it's too based around specific location and, as you say, you don't use minis?

I think the Powers are an integral part of the 4e system (in my opinion it's the defining feature of 4e) so I doubt any hard-and-fast rule will solve this problem.

 

[GameOgre]

It seems to me they just dislike picking attacks and moves off a list. Both have told me its *much* more limiting to them to have to pick off a list.

I pointed out that in 3.5 and 1&2E most of the time they simply stated(I attack him with my sword) so why is it more limiting to say (I use blank ability to attack him with my sword) *Hahaha* but for some crazy reason they seem to look at it like they are forced to do preset moves(shrug).

I guess I could just steal the 4E things I like and kick it back to 3.5 but to be honest I don't want to. I love the style and flare of 4E. Solos elites the way attacks are done..heck dange near everything.

I can see where they are coming from if I try real hard I just don't see why its a big deal.

 

[baberg]

Hrm. I'm not sure there's much we can do about that. It sounds like you've tried to reason with them and point out that in 3.5 it was similar... You could try to emphasize improvised attacks such as jumping off walls and such and use Page 42 for damage.

You could try keeping their powers behind your screen and asking them what they want to do, then pick an appropriate power. "I attack the goblin in front of me" becomes an at-will, etc. But that would be a lot of work for you.

 

[Shin Okada]

>Also realize we do not use miniatures in that game.

This can be the main problem and worth trying to change.

4e combat rules are made the use of minis in mind, even more so comparing to 3.5e combat rules.

Without minis and battle grids, so many of the powers lose their true effectiveness and appeal. Powers with forced movement simply becomes damage-dealing powers.

So as moves and options during combat encounter, such as movement & flanking.

Try using minis and grids. At least coins or some counters and grids. It will make the use of many powers much fan.

 

[Nytmare]

My guess is that it's going to be easier for you to retrofit healing and surges into 3.5 than it would be to take the powers out of 4th.

 

[Remathilis]

Don't take this as snark, because I'm dead serious.

Try another game.

4e cannot become "powerless" without re-writing to the point it resembles another game anyway. The whole thing would tumble down like a house of cards. I guess in theory you could restrict Martial classes to basic attacks only, rework the barbarian, paladin, warden, swordmage and avenger into martial or martial/combo classes, and tinker with feats to make up some of the slack, but your re-inventing the wheel at that point.

Try Castles & Crusades, its much more rules-lite and simple like 4e is. Heck, try Basic Fantasy RPG for a FREE simple fantasy RPG game. Both have upwards AC, smaller spell lists, and a bit of an old-school anything goes feel. Heck, if you run core-only, 3e is a better alternative to stripping powers out of 4e.

I just think you'd be better off finding a system that fits rather than contorting 4e into something its not.

 

[Wightbred]

If you really want to do this it might be possible.

My suggestion would be:
1. If they don't like racial encounter powers, stick to races without them like Humans and Dwarves. Shifters might also work for them as the change lasts the rest of the encounter. They might also accept Dragonborn breath as a magical effect.
2. For other races you could drop out the encounters for a small benefit. For example, Elven Accuracy could become a +1 to hit with bows.
3. Drop any of classes this would be complex for and stick to the classic martial classes of fighter, ranger and rogue.
4. Give the martial classes above (fighter, ranger, rogue) basic attacks only, but balance them for the fact they don't have powers by a small bonus to damage of +2 or +3. Someone can probably work out the maths if you needed, but otherwise I'd just go by feel.
5. Add any other class they are prepared to accept working on powers, probably the cleric and wizard at least, and just use powers as standard for these.
6. House rule any inconsistencies with feats etc as they come up. I can't see any from a quick look, but I'm sure you will find them in play.

Good luck.

 

[Henry]

Don't take this as snark, because I'm dead serious.

Try another game.

4e cannot become "powerless" without re-writing to the point it resembles another game anyway.

I'm of a dissenting opinion on this one. I feel like if you could analyze the powers of a given level, you could probably figure out how to distill them down into a set of options to do X number of times per day. Something like:

Fighters:

At character level 1, fighters can do the following once per encounter:

- a 2(W) attack that pushes or pulls an enemy into or out of melee range
-a 2(W) attack that dazes them until end of their next turn
- a 1(W) attack that knocks them prone or stuns them until next turn.

they can do one of the following once per day:
-a 3(W) attack
-a 2(W) attack that causes 5 ongoing damage (save ends)
-a 1(W) attack on three adjacent targets

Or something like that. Reading the powers, you can deduce what utility effects are more important than others (for instance, a reaction that gets you out of harm's way is appropriate for level 2, but an INTERRUPT that gets you out of harm's way is more apropos for level 10), you can deduce what kinds of status effects are worth more damage (for instance, stunning someone > dazing them or knocking prone > sliding someone > pushing them around), and so on. Leaving them a choice of open-ended effects, and forcing them to use their imaginations to come up with HOW a certain attack would look or why it worked that way ("I wound up and smacked him HARD as I can with my Maul!" or "I feinted, made him slip up, and used my foot to kick him halfway across the room!")

Then, just experiment and see if it's not quite good enough, or neeeds cutting back. Admittedly, it's more work than just switching to a whole different game, but you might be able to tweak it enough to what you're looking for. After all, you're not trying to do this for ALL classes and ALL levels the way a game designer is -- you're doing for JUST the classes and levels that your players are playing.

 

[NMcCoy]

Seconding Remathilis above - I'm a huge fan of 4e myself, but the powers are so central to the system that I suspect you'd have an easier time finding a system that's more suitable to your tastes. A better question to ask is "what DO you like about 4e?" Figure that out, and I suspect you'll not have too much trouble either finding another system with those desirable traits, or porting those traits over to a system of your choice.

EDIT: Regarding Henry's suggestion above, I'm not sure how that's actually getting rid of powers - looks more like keeping powers, but just taking the flavor off. Also, dazed is almost always a stronger condition than prone, so I'm not sure why you have "dazed +2[W]" in combination with "prone +1[W]"...