Anyone else not feel "the grind"

[ObsidianCrane]

I DM home games, and use a mix of home made encounters and selected pre-written ones. In general so far 4E pre-written modules have been to "old school" and this leads to a grindy sense of play regardless of how dynamic each individual encounter is. But that "experience" is clearly one of personal preference.

I have had a few combats "go on" while DMing usually when the dice run cold for the party though (and now we have an Avenger that problem has gone away largely). I don't recall having that sense as a player though, but then I like the tactical elements of play in combat, so that's more personal preference as well.

Oh the other thing I've seen lead to "power grind" is "power hoarding". Players who hoard their Encounter powers, treating them as precious resources tend to spend a lot more time spamming their At-Wills, instead of making reasonable use of their Encounters and speeding the whole combat up as a result.

The last thing that causes "power grind" are powers like Twin Strike which are often clearly superior to the other choices for the class in the At-Will category. So the character ends up with one of these and just keeps spamming that one over and over because its just better to do that. For new players I've seen this lead to avoiding using Encounters and or Daily powers because the At-Will is so dependable.

 

[KarinsDad]

Totally missing the point, there. The point is not to give up your actions to let somebody else do something fun.

The point is to take your cleric, for example, and concentrate your power selections and feat choices and such on making yourself an awesome leader, instead of becoming a mediocre leader who can deal out a lot of damage once per fight, stick down an enemy once per fight, and build a wall once per fight. Because you may have only five powers plus two dailies, and by the time you pull out three of those to go into off-topic choices, you're left with a pretty slim selection of powers -- and that's when you start hearing, "Oh, I guess I'll lance of faith again."

Since leaders can only take leader powers, how exactly is it that they can pick "bad leader powers" as long as they pick them for their primary ability score?

The point is that people who say they don't have "enough options" are often spread too thin. Taking more options that support a particular aspect of your character means you get to do more things while playing towards that aspect.

The point is that people who say they don't have "enough options" might be bored at the repetitiveness.

It's not a matter of which powers, it's a matter of a few encounters that quickly disappear in the first 4 or 5 rounds, even fewer dailies that most people try to not use right away, and the same two At Will powers over and over and over again. In fact, it's often one At Will over and over and over again and the second At Will in some circumstances. zzzzzzzzzzzzz

This can easily happen without even jumping outside your class, actually. Looking over the Cleric, for example, if you start mixing wisdom and strength based powers, you can easily halve your action choices in any given situation. If half your powers are ranged and half are melee, and you know you want to be in melee, you suddenly are looking at two or three choices instead of half a dozen. Going to range does the same thing, and often the response from the player is, "I don't have enough options!" No, you have plenty of options, but they're a schizophrenic mishmash. (This gets particularly bad when you start taking feats to play two different positions -- some that help you when using a weapon, some that benefit your implement powers, whatever.)

Schizophrenic?

Have you actually played a Laser Ranged Cleric? I have. If the cleric has zero melee powers and gets surrounded, he can be in serious trouble. Sure, he can do MBAs, but that won't typically get him out of being surrounded. There is exactly one Encounter Close Blast damage power that will not result in an Opportunity Attack for a ranged cleric before level 13.

You seem to be focusing on taking the optimal mix. Who cares if one takes the optimal mix? Regardless of mix, at low level that PC quickly runs out of Encounter powers and is still stuck with the same two boring old At Wills. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

And, if I have two melee and two ranged Encounter powers, I can guarantee that my Cleric will use all four before the end of an encounter most of the time, your schizophrenic claims not withstanding.

When you're really focusing on your role, it's not boring to use Sacred Flame for the third time in a row, because you're tossing out temporary HP to the people who need it. And it's not boring to keep throwing down Righteous Brands because you're constantly deciding which ally needs the boost most.

No sorry. It's not boring for YOU to use Sacred Flame for the third time in a row. For me, it agonizingly boring. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Please don't assume that just because you follow the WotC mantra word for word that I enjoy doing so.

Note: My wife uses Twin Strike all of the time (probably 8 rounds out of 10) and never gets bored doing so. She just gets frustrated because she runs into cold streaks where she will miss with it 3 or 4 rounds in a row. I would go nuts just using Twin Strike (which most Rangers do a significant majority of the time because many of the Encounter powers are interrupts).

It's not about who kills the dragon.

No. It's about killing the dragon in a fun and interesting way instead of killing it in nearly the same to how the last dragon (or any other creature) was killed.

 

[Keenath]

Since leaders can only take leader powers, how exactly is it that they can pick "bad leader powers" as long as they pick them for their primary ability score?

Well, for example, what I just got through saying about splitting yourself between ranged and melee.

The point is that people who say they don't have "enough options" might be bored at the repetitiveness.

I'm not denying that. It's possible, but the point of the post we are discussing is that sometimes it's power selection or spread that can be the problem, rather than actual repetition.

Have you actually played a Laser Ranged Cleric? I have. If the cleric has zero melee powers and gets surrounded, he can be in serious trouble. Sure, he can do MBAs, but that won't typically get him out of being surrounded. There is exactly one Encounter Close Blast damage power that will not result in an Opportunity Attack for a ranged cleric before level 13.

Got one in my party right now, actually. I'm the DM so I don't typically play a particular character.

Oh noes. Not an opportunity attack. Save me save me.

If she's in a situation where she can't shift away -- which is very rare for a strongly ranged build like hers -- she'll take the OA. It's not that big a deal.

Regardless of mix, at low level that PC quickly runs out of Encounter powers and is still stuck with the same two boring old At Wills. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Mmmkay, we heard you the first twelve times you said that. Thank you.

No. It's about killing the dragon in a fun and interesting way instead of killing it in nearly the same to how the last dragon (or any other creature) was killed.

You're the one who incorrectly claimed his post was talking about giving up actions to let somebody else have the spotlight. So your response to a clarification of his interesting point is to... repeat your same tired grumble a few more times.

 

[fnwc]

What I'm referring to is that the same frame of mind that leans towards having an option for everything quite often leads to a frame of mind that wants to weigh over Every. Single. Option. At. Your. Disposal in combat in order to make sure you're using "the right one." And meanwhile, the rest of the players are counting the cracks in the ceiling.

I've personally found this to be less an issue in 4E than 3.5, simply because the combats have more rounds, and therefore the decision each round becomes less pivotal.

In my prior (3.0 or 3.5) games, particularly at higher levels, there were only a few rounds (2-4) of combat, so each round was extremely valuable.

Now, it's much easier to "sacrifice" a round to gain position by moving or making a sub-optimal choice, since it won't affect the battle as much.

Of course, YMMV as well.

This is not an edition flame, merely my observations between the two combat systems.

 

[Bagpuss]

Felt it for a second time last night. Fighting Wraiths - Insubstantial and have an attack that causes weakness and regenerate who (in their right mind) thought that would be a good idea?. When your critical hit does 3 points of damage (half damage from being weakened and then half again because they are insubstantial), which the wraith can promptly regenerate, you can't help but feel the grind.

Still it's better than 3rd Ed where the Rogue would have been useless and the critical would have had no effect whatsoever.

 

[Ryujin]

And, what's wrong with this concept? As a player, my least enjoyable and memorable moments are when I am stuck with a single choice because nothing else will work, or worse yet, I have no options and am forced to move and set up an action for the following round. My most enjoyable and memorable moments are situations where I find a unique way to save a fellow PC or prevent the BBEG from fleeing or some such.

I find that my least enjoyable moments are when I'm useless to the party, because unrealistically high enemy NADs make me essentially worthless. Occasionally though, I'll run into a situation when that makes me think outside the bash & mash box. For instance, the time that we encountered a Wizard with NADs pushing the 30 limit. I used Bluff to run screaming from the room in terror, to set up a shot with Mire the Mind (makes the whole party invisible to the target for a round). The only reason I hit was that +2 from Bluff. The whole party unloaded on him and had him bloodied in that one round.

Mire the Mind seems to be a favourite for me. Another incident in which we couldn't get to the BBEG saw me teleporting 2 squares in front of him, whacking him with MtM, then Fey Switching with our charging optimized Rogue, who came immediately after me and put a major hurt on him. It took an action point to pull it off, but it was well worth it to see him drop within a round of that. As I recall he dropped to one of my Eldritch Blasts. Dumb luck that it all came off.

More than once though I've been down to alternating Eyebites and Eldritch Blasts when all else is gone but a teleport or two. That's why I've picked up Intelligent Blademaster as a Swordmage multi; to mix things up a little. That means that even when I'm just down to movement teleports, I can zap in as a flanker and actually do some damage.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, for example, what I just got through saying about splitting yourself between ranged and melee.

We have a Shifter Cleric who does just that in our group.

Her At Will powers are Lance of Faith and Righteous Brand.

Go figure. So, how exactly is she not an awesome leader (as per your definition above) by doing this? Every At Will is used to help some other PC.

 

[Keenath]

Go figure. So, how exactly is she not an awesome leader (as per your definition above) by doing this? Every At Will is used to help some other PC.

Sigh. Because I never said it's guaranteed that doing that will cause you to suck as a character or something. As per Dan's original comment, spreading yourself across several concepts can cause a sense of grind through feeling overly restricted, if the player is prone to that sort of thing.

It may not be an issue depending on exactly how he plays the character, or, like me, the player may have grind resistance so that it just doesn't bother him to be using Lance of Faith for the fourth time this encounter.

You could do the same thing by taking lots of reaction powers that trigger in different circumstances, especially if you're a ranger. If you have eight available powers, but only three are powers you can actually choose to use on your own turn, that might make some players feel the grind.

I'm happy your player isn't having this issue; but we've also heard from several people in this thread alone who did indeed have that experience.

 

[Nail]

I'm happy your player isn't having this issue; but we've also heard from several people in this thread alone who did indeed have that experience.

FWIW (and Karinsdad has discussed this in other threads), the longtooth shifter cleric *can* pull off the combo of ranged/melee cleric, as their stat bonuses line up perfectly and dumping Cha for a Cleric is No Big Deal(tm).

But there are plenty of other builds that can't, so I think the point still stands: "Diversifying can make your PC suck, and make it seem as if you have fewer choices than [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTy2DnntJ98"]your average bear[/ame]."

 

[keterys]

Even just needing to have two weapons / a weapon and implement can be pretty onerous (like ending up +1 behind, so not too crazy). You also might end up without superior weapon, focus, expertise type stuff because of being spread between the two things.