Flanking Questions (and a few others)

[Azraeus]

All right, heres the deal...I have a rogue in my group (I DM half the time, he DM's the other half), and he's come up with some interesting flanking opportunities, which I don't mind, but I would like clarification so he doesn't set a precedent for future rogues.

1. Mordenkanen's Sword--Since MS doesn't get an opp. attack, I assume this is illegal...correct?

2. Onyx Dog--I can't find a rule that disallows this, but it seems to make the rogue too...easy. Is it legal?

Also, I have a few others that have come up...just wondering how they would work.

1. I had a player playing a paladin that was convinced that he could mark monsters by tossing his hammers at a guy from a distance, behind cover and his party, so that the monster had to either:

A: Run at him, provoking OA's by the rest of the party

B: throw a ranged, taking a penalty or otherwise limiting him

OR

C: Take the damage from the mark

Does that work?????

2. Stinking cloud: Not so much a question, but our party has just devoured solos by chasing them with it for autodamage...seems a little ridiculous to me...finally got them to stop by having the wizard get smacked around till they didn't have an action anymore, but it doesn't seem like the best solution.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Legildur]

1. I had a player playing a paladin that was convinced that he could mark monsters by tossing his hammers at a guy from a distance, behind cover and his party, so that the monster had to either:

A: Run at him, provoking OA's by the rest of the party

B: throw a ranged, taking a penalty or otherwise limiting him

OR

C: Take the damage from the mark

Does that work?????

Divine Challenge (PHB p91) marks (as a Minor Action) one creature within Close Burst 5.... you must engage the target by either attacking it or ending your turn adjacent to it.

So yes, issue Divine Challenge (minor action), throw hammer (ranged attack -standard action), retreat behind cover (move action).

Target then takes penalty to hit and radiant damage unless it attacks Paladin.

 

[Markn]

1. Mordenkanen's Sword--Since MS doesn't get an opp. attack, I assume this is illegal...correct?

2. Onyx Dog--I can't find a rule that disallows this, but it seems to make the rogue too...easy. Is it legal?

1 - Mordenkainen's Sword does not let you flank.

2 - Onyx dog does not help you flank either - though it MAY get flank using the caster if the immediate reaction at will power triggers or if the caster directs the dog to attack on the casters turn.

IMO, the way I see it is, conjurations are things that are created by you. They move, attack (or other) based on your direction and by you giving up actions for the conjuration to do so. They are not really independent thinking creatures and so do not constitute a threat until they act, which generally speaking is when it is the creators turn.

Hope that makes sense. Others may rule differently but thats how I see it.

 

[Markn]

Stinking cloud: Not so much a question, but our party has just devoured solos by chasing them with it for autodamage...seems a little ridiculous to me...finally got them to stop by having the wizard get smacked around till they didn't have an action anymore, but it doesn't seem like the best solution.

There are a few ways to look at this. First, don't use solos by themselves. Even without this power, the ability of a party to slam it with effect after effect makes solos pretty vulnerable. If you run a solo, you need to give it other advantages, like terrain, other bad guys or situational benefits to keep it on an even playing field.

Second, and this one is certainly open to interpretation, our group has decided to use literal readings of powers. Thus, if the wizard moves the zone over the creature, he has not entered it and will only take damage when he starts his turn there. This lessens the effect and stops the metagaming to some degree. Not sure if this is the correct interpretation of the rules but it seems very balanced and our group is very happy with it.

 

[Markn]

Also, as far as Divine Challenge goes, what Legildur said.

Yay - I made 400 posts! Yay for me!

 

[Azraeus]

Thanks for the help!

 

[fissionessence]

2 - Onyx dog does not help you flank either - though it MAY get flank using the caster if the immediate reaction at will power triggers or if the caster directs the dog to attack on the casters turn.

What information is this answer based off of? The onyx dog has no melee basic attack, and therefore can't make opportunity attacks. As far as I can tell, this is not a reason for the onyx dog to be unable to flank. Nor do I see any other reasons.

~

 

[Markn]

What information is this answer based off of? The onyx dog has no melee basic attack, and therefore can't make opportunity attacks. As far as I can tell, this is not a reason for the onyx dog to be unable to flank. Nor do I see any other reasons.

~

Well, to be honest, there is no definitive answer. However, a summoned creature (and specifically the onyx dog), is not capable of action without you giving up and action. This is further represented by the summoned creature not being able to take opportunity attacks. In my mind, this concludes that the summoned creature is not a threat unless you actively control it and therefore is no credible threat and therefore no flank. There ARE some summoned creatures who are able to make opportunity attacks which in my mind leads to independent actions from the caster and in those situations I would allow flank.

I will concede that others may see it differently and the rules are silent on wether summoned creatures provide flank or not. This is my interpretation and is a reasonable one at that. it's up to each DM to make his own determination on this.

 

[Markn]

Two last point,

its best to be consistent with all summoning spells. If the Onyx Dog can provide flank, why not Mordy's Sword, and why not every other summoning spell (Bigby's comes to mind). Clearly, certain summoning spells shouldn't provide flank, so why would some give flank and not others. Its far simpler to rule that they don't.

The rules do not specifically say that summoned creatures provide flank - at least not that I've seen.

Again, my interpretation. Its up to each DM to decide whats right for his campaign.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Quick summery on the rules for flanking, summoned creatures, and conjurations:

To flank you and an ally must be on opposit sides, etc. and must both be able to attack the target.

Summoned creatures state specifically:

Allied Creature: When you use a summoning power, you create a creature that is an ally to you and your allies.

(PHB 2 page 221)

Conjurations make no claim (PHB 2 page 220)

Onyx Dog uses the conjuration keyword (AV page 182)