Why do dragons do so little damage?

[Furby076]

If all combat was focused on is strength then sure, but it isn't - at least shouldn't be. Any DM who throws a dragon at their players by just having the dragon charge in and physically attack is not playing the dragon correctly and is also having his dragon die to characters who are much lower level then they should be for such a fight - very quickly. Dragons - even the dumber ones - are incredibly smart and tactical - they have a ton of abilities.

A dragon should be using his ranged attacks and other abilities to soften up the enemies - and then *IF* the dragon *HAS* to he gets up and close to melee - but by the time he does that either his opponent is nearly dead or his opponent is so skilled and powerful that the dragon turned tail and flew away.

Again - if all you are looking for is an arm wrestling contest then you should not be throwing intelligent NPCs at your players - just make high strength berserkers - and watch how a group wipes the floor with them.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I think this is just a demonstration that the monster manual is a little bit sloppy in places, and certainly hasn't been playtested thoroughly-

Really? Perhaps its a demonstration of something about people who read the manual, instead?

 

[keterys]

If all combat was focused on is strength then sure, but it isn't - at least shouldn't be. Any DM who throws a dragon at their players by just having the dragon charge in and physically attack is not playing the dragon correctly and is also having his dragon die to characters who are much lower level then they should be for such a fight - very quickly. Dragons - even the dumber ones - are incredibly smart and tactical - they have a ton of abilities.

You may want to take another look at the monster manual and reconsider that paragraph. Every dragon has its combat tactics listed as a reasonable starting point.

A dragon should be using his ranged attacks and other abilities to soften up the enemies - and then *IF* the dragon *HAS* to he gets up and close to melee - but by the time he does that either his opponent is nearly dead or his opponent is so skilled and powerful that the dragon turned tail and flew away.

This is actually somewhat true of the blue dragon. It is patently false of other dragon types in the monster manual - in fact, some of those dragons are trying to figure out what you mean by 'ranged attacks'

 

[SlyFlourish]

Yeah, the dragons in the MM are underpowered. I'm looking to reduce their hitpoints and increase their damage by 1/2 level (or even double maybe).

 

[Matt James]

Yeah, the dragons in the MM are underpowered. I'm looking to reduce their hitpoints and increase their damage by 1/2 level (or even double maybe).

Did you read the replies in this thread?

 

[Elric]

Disclaimer: I am not a mathematician.

Compared to the Dire Bear the Level 11 Black Dragon has +1 to attack. However it still doesn't seem to fit. But let's take the White Dragon, raise him up two levels (+2 to Attack and +1 to damage, amongst other things) and we can compare a level 11 Solo Brute and a Level 11 Elite Brute

The Dire Bear attacks with +15 to AC and does 2d8 + 6 damage with his Claws and Maul allows him to do two claw attacks. Assuming everything hits it's an average of 42 damage.

Indeed 2d8+6 averages 15, so the Dire Bear averages 30 damage if both claws hit.

 

[Regicide]

Yeah, the dragons in the MM are underpowered. I'm looking to reduce their hitpoints and increase their damage by 1/2 level (or even double maybe).

It would seem that the designers disagree. Most of Mearls' examples of how to make a white dragon encounter more interesting also make it easier to kill the dragon, including impaling icicle right out of the Drizzt novels! mearls: Solo Monsters and the Risk of Boredom

 

[Byronic]

Indeed 2d8+6 averages 15, so the Dire Bear averages 30 damage if both claws hit.

*sighs* One of these days I'm going to learn how to sleep more then once every two days.

Even then a Dire Bear STILL does more damage with his claws then the White Dragon.

 

[Nightson]

And the dire bear can't fly, or use a breath weapon, or any other special dragon ability.

Dragons are balanced around their level, not around some metagame idea about how dragon's should be more difficult then their XP value indicates.

 

[Stalker0]

Dragons are balanced around their level, not around some metagame idea about how dragon's should be more difficult then their XP value indicates.

I think you just proved the original point.

Dragons are balanced around their level and role, but in doing so have lost (in some opinion) what has made them dragons.

In 3e, dragons did BIG damage AND flew AND had a breath etc etc. They were the pinnacle of power in some ways, afterall, there dragons!

4e dragons can be tough to fight, but there damage isn't what makes it so, and as people are arguing, there seem to be plenty of "lesser" monsters that do better in the damage department.