Level Up (A5E) Creating Monsters: Two Questions

[TheDungeonMathster]

Question #1: Elite vs Legendary
I have always had a hard time understanding the fundamental difference between Legendary and Elite creatures, so I need someone to help me.

Legendary creatures, from my understanding, are built to mechanically allow the creature enough actions to compete (action economy-wise) with the PCs. Being Legendary does not increase per round damage output nor does it necessarily make the creature more powerful. It just divides their "per round" damage output among more actions.

Elite creatures, on the other hand, are powered up versions of creatures. They become a sack of HP and huge damage dealers. But this does not affect anything else (AC, DC, abilities). Thus, creating an Elite CR 10 creature, while counting as two CR 10 creatures, is not the same as a single CR 20 creature.

Which to use and when?

Question #2: AoE Abilities and DPR
In the Monstrous Menagerie, a damage adjustment for AoE effects is only necessary if the AoE attack can occur every round. However, if I have a dragon, with a recharge fire breath that is a 120 foot cone and does 35 (10d6) Fire (essentially being able to do damage to 4 PCs), then, as far as I can tell from the monster design section, this damage only counts as 35... not four times this. Why is this correct?

 

[TheDungeonMathster]

For Question #2, I think I figured out the issue. I was reading the Area of Effect text, but after that there is a Limited Use paragraph. Combining these yields the (I think) intended ruling.

If a monster can use a limited use area attack, the damage dealt by this attack can go over the average damage-per-round budget. This is done by "borrowing" damage from the other rounds (thereby reducing the DPR on the other rounds).

However, the actual damage from the area attack must be reduced because it will likely damage more than one opponent. Therefore, once you have determined the amount of your damage budget you spent for the limited use area attack and reduced the subsequent DPR for the other rounds accordingly, you must reduce the actual damage of the limited use area attack by 30%.

However, this is still flawed in my opinion. Here is a concrete example:

Suppose I am making a CR 11 creature. Its average DPR should be 60 (according to TABLE: STATISTICS FOR MONSTERS BY CHALLENGE RATING on page 501).

This creature has 3 Claw attacks, each dealing 20. Thus, we get to the 60 DPR.

However, this creature also has a Limited Use Area of Effect attack. Let's say it's a 30-foot Emanation effect (which would effectively hit 3 opponents on average) and, since it is limited use, I spend 90 from the damage budget. So, it should deal 70% of 90 = 63. So, I am effectively dealing 63 to each opponent in that Emanation - no matter the size of the Emanation, in fact.

Since we can assume a creature is not going to use this ability to only get one target, my true DPR with this single attack is at least 126 (and, very likely, around 189). Of course, since I went over my DPR budget by 90 - 60 = 30, I need to reduce my DPR on subsequent rounds by 15 (half of that 30) each.

Thus, the new build after this adjustment is a CR 11 creature with 2 Claws at 20 each and 1 Bite at 5 (thereby getting to the required 45 damage, which is the 60 minus 15), and I will have it open with the Area of Effect at 126 damage (at the very least). Now my DPR is at least (45 + 45 + 126)/3 = 72.

This is a DPR comparative to a CR 13 creature. Truth be told, if we are realistic, that emanation will hit 3 targets, and so the true DPR is now (45 + 45+ 189)/3 = 93, which is equivalent DPR to a CR 18 creature.

I just think the computations are broken somewhere. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[lichmaster]

Which to use and when?

Depends on what you want to do: a Legendary monster is supposed to make for a tactically interesting, more complex combat, but not necessarily much harder than a non legendary monster with the same CR. Legendary monsters should in principle be good for Solo encounters, except it was found already in 5e that despite having better action economy, they don't necessarily measure up against a fully rested and prepared party, so you may need to give the monster some minions and lair actions.
An Elite monster instead is designed to be a Solo monster that can deal and endure enough damage to be a hard encounter against a party of 4 PCs of a given level without having a CR that's astronomically higher than the level of the party. It doesn't necessarily make for a tactically complex encounter, though.
You can also have a monster that's both Elite and Legendary, perfect for the final confrontation in the campaign against the BBEG.

Question #2: AoE Abilities and DPR
In the Monstrous Menagerie, a damage adjustment for AoE effects is only necessary if the AoE attack can occur every round. However, if I have a dragon, with a recharge fire breath that is a 120 foot cone and does 35 (10d6) Fire (essentially being able to do damage to 4 PCs), then, as far as I can tell from the monster design section, this damage only counts as 35... not four times this. Why is this correct?

I can't answer the "why" as I'm not part of the design team. I can speculate that it is so because AoEs normally don't manage to hit more than 2 or 3 targets, and even in that case when designing the monster the damage is assumed to be unmitigated by saves or resistances, but in combat they often are. So there should be no major concern of the damage being too high.

 

[lichmaster]

For Question #2, I think I figured out the issue. I was reading the Area of Effect text, but after that there is a Limited Use paragraph. Combining these yields the (I think) intended ruling.

However, this is still flawed in my opinion. Here is a concrete example:

Suppose I am making a CR 11 creature. Its average DPR should be 60 (according to TABLE: STATISTICS FOR MONSTERS BY CHALLENGE RATING on page 501).

This creature has 3 Claw attacks, each dealing 20. Thus, we get to the 60 DPR.

However, this creature also has a Limited Use Area of Effect attack. Let's say it's a 30-foot Emanation effect (which would effectively hit 3 opponents on average) and, since it is limited use, I spend 90 from the damage budget. So, it should deal 70% of 90 = 63. So, I am effectively dealing 63 to each opponent in that Emanation - no matter the size of the Emanation, in fact.

Since we can assume a creature is not going to use this ability to only get one target, my true DPR with this single attack is at least 126 (and, very likely, around 189). Of course, since I went over my DPR budget by 90 - 60 = 30, I need to reduce my DPR on subsequent rounds by 15 (half of that 30) each.

Thus, the new build after this adjustment is a CR 11 creature with 2 Claws at 20 each and 1 Bite at 5 (thereby getting to the required 45 damage, which is the 60 minus 15), and I will have it open with the Area of Effect at 126 damage (at the very least). Now my DPR is at least (45 + 45 + 126)/3 = 72.

This is a DPR comparative to a CR 13 creature. Truth be told, if we are realistic, that emanation will hit 3 targets, and so the true DPR is now (45 + 45+ 189)/3 = 93, which is equivalent DPR to a CR 18 creature.

I just think the computations are broken somewhere. Am I doing something wrong?

Not sure I follow your logic.

A "vanilla" CR 11 monster could make 3 attacks for 20damage each.
Now you add a limited use AoE attack. Since it's limited use, it can deal more than 60 damage per round, but for every 2 points above that you must reduce the total damage by 1 for the "off" rounds.
Limited use abilities and AoE normally are actions, and are not combined with multiattack and the like

So for example you could do a breath weapon for 90damage (30 above budget), and then the 3 attacks would do 15 damage each on normal rounds, for a total of 45.
Over the course of 3 rounds (the typical and assumed design lenght for combat), it will deal 90+45+45=180, which is exactly like 3x60. Limited use AoE only allow you to "front load" the damage a bit

 

[Tessarael]

A 120' cone is a huge area of effect. Unless the party is very spread out, the dragon should be able to maneuver such that it can get breathe on all of the party. Likewise, there's a big difference going from 10' radius to 20' to 30' to 40' radius - see details below.

Last session, we were hit by Meteor Swarm, and all PCs fit within the same 40' radius, though we were somewhat spread out and Meteor Swarm can strike at four different points, each with 40' radius. If that had been 20' radius and a single point, it would have hit about half of us; likewise if it had been say a 60' cone or 120' bolt.

If you're above ground, with few obstructions, with a party of mostly ranged damage-dealers, and tactically chooses to spread wide, then you could probably limit the 120' dragon breath cone to hitting only two PCs, but Meteor Swarm would still get everyone.

There's a good illustration of areas of effect in this thread:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/du...me-mechanics/43382-cone-spells-area-of-effect

It may help to think about it in terms of area of effect, where I've calculated the cone's area as 1/2 x length^2, as the width at its furthest extent equals the length, and I'm assuming 5' wide for the line area of effects:

10'square= 100 sq.ft. 15'cone= 112 sq.ft. 5'radius circle= 79 sq.ft. 20'line= 100 sq.ft.
15'square= 225 sq.ft. 20'cone= 200 sq.ft. ............................ 40'line= 200 sq.ft.
20'square= 400 sq.ft. 30'cone= 450 sq.ft. 10'radius circle= 314 sq.ft. 80'line= 400 sq.ft.
30'square= 900 sq.ft. 40'cone= 800 sq.ft. 15'radius circle= 707 sq.ft. 160'line= 800 sq.ft.
......................................... 20'radius circle=1257 sq.ft.
40'square=1600 sq.ft. 60'cone=1800 sq.ft. 25'radius circle=1963 sq.ft. 320'line= 1600 sq.ft.
50'square=2500 sq.ft. 70'cone=2450 sq.ft. 30'radius circle=2827 sq.ft.
60'square=3600 sq.ft. 80'cone=3200 sq.ft. 35'radius circle=3848 sq.ft.
70'square=4900 sq.ft. 100'cone=5000 sq.ft. 40'radius circle=5027 sq.ft.
80'square=6400 sq.ft. 120'cone=7200 sq.ft. 45'radius circle=6362 sq.ft.
90'square=8100 sq.ft. 130'cone=8450 sq.ft. 50'radius circle=7854 sq.ft.

So roughly speaking these are the equivalents for typical areas of effect:

• 10' square, 15' cone, 5' radius circle, 20' line
• 20' square, 30' cone, 10' radius circle, 80' line
• 40' square, 60' cone, 25' radius circle, 160' line
• 80' square, 120' cone, 45' radius circle, 1280' line

It really depends if groups are bunched up, or spread out. If they spread out so that it is say one target per 20' square (400 sq.ft.) then the number of targets hit is much less. Lines of effect don't work well to hit many combatants, except in long corridors, on straight roads, when the enemy is marching in a column, and so forth. It also depends how well the area damage dealer can maneuver to maximize the number of targets hit. In an open environment, a dragon is fast and can fly, so will easily be able to target a wide spread. Cones usually have you as the source point for the damage, so if you're surrounded and cannot maneuver, or if you won't move to avoid opportunity attacks, then the number of targets hit may only be say 25% of those around you.

I've seen Lightning Bolt, a 60' line, typically hit only 2 to 3 enemies; whereas Fireball with radius 20' hits at least 2, but usually more, up to 8 opponents, though it often will catch an ally or two as well (helps if you can sculpt the spell to avoid that). Sickening Radiance with 30' radius will usually hit 3 to 12 enemies.

 

[Morrus]

Legendary -- has enough actions to solo a party but is not stronger than its CR says, so use its CR straight when encounter building but you don't have to support it with mooks. They make solo encounters more fun and not just a punch bag, but they aren't particularly more powerful.

Elite -- is much stronger, worth 2 x CR of the regular creature when encounter building. Not necessarily for solos as it won't have the extra actions and would get action-economied to death on its own. Use with others.

Legendary is about action economy and making solo monster encounters interesting, elite is about raw strength. Two different dials for different uses.

 

[TheDungeonMathster]

Not sure I follow your logic.

A "vanilla" CR 11 monster could make 3 attacks for 20damage each.
Now you add a limited use AoE attack. Since it's limited use, it can deal more than 60 damage per round, but for every 2 points above that you must reduce the total damage by 1 for the "off" rounds.
Limited use abilities and AoE normally are actions, and are not combined with multiattack and the like

So for example you could do a breath weapon for 90damage (30 above budget), and then the 3 attacks would do 15 damage each on normal rounds, for a total of 45.
Over the course of 3 rounds (the typical and assumed design lenght for combat), it will deal 90+45+45=180, which is exactly like 3x60. Limited use AoE only allow you to "front load" the damage a bit

I think I see my issue. Everything in the text is about the damage budget - even the DPR. The true damage is different.

Your example illustrates this. The budget is 60 DPR. Over a 3 round fight, that's 180 for the damage budget.

I spend 90 for the AoE which reduces the budget remaining to 90, which I split to the other two rounds for 45 each.

HOWEVER, since the AoE is, well, an AoE, the actual damage done on that round is 70% of 90 = 63 (but this 63 will be suffered, likely, by 2 or more creatures). Thus, my actual DPR depends on how many targets the AoE hits.
Hit only 1 target implies actual DPR = (63 + 45 + 45)/3 = 51
Hit 2 targets implies actual DPR = (126 + 45 + 45)/3 = 72
Hit 3 targets implies actual DPR = (189 + 45 + 45)/3 = 93
and so on

DPR Budget is not equal to Actual Avg DPR when AoE attacks are considered.

 

[lichmaster]

Ah, I see your point now, and you're probably correct.
The 70% figure is likely factoring in a fraction of damage not inflicted due to saves being passed or resistances, but there's no inclusion of number of targets affected. Also, it's not clear why the 70% reduction should be considered only when the AoE damage can be applied every round instead of once per combat.

If we assumed the dragon could AoE every round, with the current indications (unless I'm mistaken, I don't have access to the paper handbook right now, I'm only relying on a5e.tools) would be able to do 60x0,7 = 42 AoE damage per round every round, which could indicate around 80-160 actual damage to the party every round.

To be honest, I'm not really sold by 5e's damage and monster math, starting from the very first design choice/assumption that combat has to last on average 3 rounds and must result with one side losing all hps within that timeframe. In my experience combat tends to be way too swingy especially when large damage abilities come into play: one bad roll and combat can be FUBAR.

I haven't had any need to design A5E monsters yet, but if I do, I will probably divide AoE damage by 3 before applying the 70% reduction and the other considerations (like reducing damage in the "off" rounds if burst damage is higher than the budget).
So in your case the AoE would be 63/3 = 21 damage, and the other attacks would be 15 each. This makes it mathematically consistent

 

[dave2008]

Question #2: AoE Abilities and DPR
In the Monstrous Menagerie, a damage adjustment for AoE effects is only necessary if the AoE attack can occur every round. However, if I have a dragon, with a recharge fire breath that is a 120 foot cone and does 35 (10d6) Fire (essentially being able to do damage to 4 PCs), then, as far as I can tell from the monster design section, this damage only counts as 35... not four times this. Why is this correct?

I don't know levelup monster guidelines well enough to give you the RAW answer, but they are compatible with 5e and the 5e answer is that area of effect attacks are assumed to hit 2 targets at full damage (failed save) when calculating DPR. How many rounds you count that damage for the DPR calculation is dependent on the recharge rate: 5-6 = 1 round, 3-4 = 2 rounds, 1-2 = 3 rounds.

 

[TheDungeonMathster]

I don't know levelup monster guidelines well enough to give you the RAW answer, but they are compatible with 5e and the 5e answer is that area of effect attacks are assumed to hit 2 targets at full damage (failed save) when calculating DPR. How many rounds you count that damage for the DPR calculation is dependent on the recharge rate: 5-6 = 1 round, 3-4 = 2 rounds, 1-2 = 3 rounds.

Okay. Then perhaps this needs to be added to the errata in the Monstrous Menagerie. As it stands, there is no mention at all about number of targets or dividing damage; however, I have known of the convention for 5e. I just thought that it was odd the monster math in A5E didn't include it and I have seen the effects of this lack of inclusion in my games.

[EDIT] Perhaps the folks who designed A5E included the 70% reduction for just this specific scenario. It still doesn't work, but all the monster math from 5E assumes an automatic hit or automatic save failure. Thus, the 70% reduction to simulate successful saves breaks that tradition. It would have been better to keep the damage at 100%, but then multiply by 2 for 30 foot effects, and by 3 for AoE greater than 30 feet in radius or dimension. This result would then be taken from the damage budget.

Thus, if you want a 30 foot cone that does 60, you assume it hits two creatures so it costs 60 * 2 = 120 from your damage budget.