The redefinition of feats.

[IceFractal]

I don't so much mind the powering down of feats. While it makes them a lot less exciting to get, that's where powers come in. However, the hyper-specialization is definitely bugging me.

A recently looked at Arcane Power. Since I'm playing a Wizard, I figured there would be plenty of good, or at least usable feats in there. But what did I find? One feat I would actually want to take, and maybe three more that I could take but wouldn't help me much.

And most of the prerequisites are things you can't even retrain. I thought the whole point of removing feat chains, PrC requirements, and allowing retraining was that you didn't have to plan a character 10 levels in advance to qualify for the things you wanted. But instead, I'm seeing a whole lot of feats with ability score or race prerequisites - meaning that if you didn't predict the future and take the right choices at character creation, you're screwed.

Same thing applies to Martial Power - I was looking for feats for a friend's character, and because of his class, race, and ability scores, there were very few he even qualified for, and none that were worth getting.

One the plus side, I guess this means you don't have to feel you're missing out by taking Expertise at the nearest opportunity.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think many of the feat have more... logical prerequisites. It makes sense that a wizard feat requires INT and some WIS, for example. (It's not like requiring an INT 13 to learn Combat Expertise and the various follow up feats like Improved Trip or eventually Whirlwind Attack)

It looks different for the feats like Astral Fire and so on. They seem to be designed to make "dump-statting" everything but your class main ability scores a bad tactic.

I am definitely a fan of feats that make certain race/class combinations more interesting.

 

[Starfox]

To make sure fewer unintended combos happen, feats now are both limited in scope and limited in who can take them. Rather than having to playtest a feat as if all classes to take them, you just have to run the numbers against those who can take the feat.

This is very true and I was going to write something along these lines.

Also, feats used to be the major means of customization for all classes. These days, all classes have a selection of powers, and you can use multiclassing to transcend even those barriers. There simply is not as much need for "enabler" feats as there were in earlier editions.

Perhaps the easiest place top see this in the development of the fighter. Fighters used to gain bonus feats from a limited list. A few of the more boring (and often more powerful as well) of those feats still exists or have inheritors in 4E, but most have disappeared and become fighter powers.

Feats as they existed in 3E and 3.5 are dead. The 4E feat is a different beast, a small remnant of the old mixed with a healthy portion of new. I used to be a part of a 3E netbook of feats that published thousands of new feats. There is no call to do that in 4E, as feats are no longer the sexy, exiting beasts they were. These days, they are grey but useful drudges. The power, particularly the martial power, is the new enabler feat.

[This is absolutely not an edition war post. I'm not protesting the change of what feats have become, merely reporting it.]

 

[tyrlaan]

Feats as they existed in 3E and 3.5 are dead. The 4E feat is a different beast, a small remnant of the old mixed with a healthy portion of new. I used to be a part of a 3E netbook of feats that published thousands of new feats. There is no call to do that in 4E, as feats are no longer the sexy, exiting beasts they were. These days, they are grey but useful drudges. The power, particularly the martial power, is the new enabler feat.

For the most part, yes. 4e does have feats that provide new abilities, but they really are just new ability choices. Example - Channel Divinity feats.

Folks have pretty much said it. With the advent of powers, feats needed some focus. I think the 4e feat is what was born from necessity. I'm not a fan of some of the over-specialized requirements many hold, but the overriding definition of "what is a feat" makes good sense for 4e.

[This is absolutely not an edition war post. I'm not protesting the change of what feats have become, merely reporting it.]

Heh, how much longer until we won't feel like we need to disclaim posts for fear of a flame war?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Much as I enjoy 4e, I'm not sure I like this thing that is the new feat. However, reading through the replies, I think a large part of it is the organization of the new feats.

If I buy a book called "Martial Power" then I want the vast majority of the feats within to be useful to as many martial characters as possible. I don't want to see hyper-specialized feats with prerequisites like: "elf, ranger, beastmaster" etc. Those feats are better placed in "The Complete Elf" or even "The Complete Ranger." In such titles, one would expect and even desire such hyper-specialization.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

I would like to echo those who observed that 4E powers occupy part of the niche that 3E feats filled. I'll take this perspective one step farther and say that it's probably best to compare 3E feats to 4E (feats+powers). Compared 3E feats only to 4E feats is analogous to comparing the 3E saving throw to the 4E saving throw, without considering that Reflex, Fortitude, and Will are now defenses, not saving throws.

Also, I rather like the use of racial feats and class feats to help customize characters. I like that dwarves are still good fighters (despite not having a racial bonus to strength) in part because of Dwarven Weapon Training. I like that we can avoid level adjustment for some races by making some of their abilities feats. Using the same currency, feats, helps balance such race-specific abilities against more general feats. That said, I would love to see even more feats with no or fewer prerequisites, in addition to the class-specific bonuses that have become more prevalent.

 

[Stalker0]

Folks have pretty much said it. With the advent of powers, feats needed some focus. I think the 4e feat is what was born from necessity. I'm not a fan of some of the over-specialized requirements many hold, but the overriding definition of "what is a feat" makes good sense for 4e.

I don't think this is necessarily true. One thing feats can provide for is additional "at-will" powers. A character right now gets 2 at-wills attacks to last the game, adding a few more (though likely not as the same power level) can be useful.

Also I hope to see more feats that increase the utility of certain at-wills (aka the gladiator feats). Though I would really prefer that they base the feats on enhancing a particular mechanic and not listing a set of at-wills.

For example, instead of a feat that enhances the push effect of Tide of Iron, just make a feat that if you use an at-will that has a push effect, increase the push by 1 (or whatever effect would be balanced).

 

[tyrlaan]

I don't think this is necessarily true. One thing feats can provide for is additional "at-will" powers. A character right now gets 2 at-wills attacks to last the game, adding a few more (though likely not as the same power level) can be useful.

This would be nice, I agree, but would have to be carefully balanced and playtested I'd imagine. 4e seems to hinge some of its balance on keeping how many powers a player has at their disposal for a given encounter relatively constant across the board.

For example, instead of a feat that enhances the push effect of Tide of Iron, just make a feat that if you use an at-will that has a push effect, increase the push by 1 (or whatever effect would be balanced).

This would just be too much sense. They already have done things like this with some magic items actually. Why not extend the notion to feats?

 

[Intense_Interest]

If I buy a book called "Martial Power" then I want the vast majority of the feats within to be useful to as many martial characters as possible. I don't want to see hyper-specialized feats with prerequisites like: "elf, ranger, beastmaster" etc. Those feats are better placed in "The Complete Elf" or even "The Complete Ranger." In such titles, one would expect and even desire such hyper-specialization.

Can I disagree here? I would hate for WotC to create an interesting yet limited feat to be released in a book called "Complete X". I have Arcane Power, and I don't mind that there are some one-off "race/class combo" feats that are about as new and interesting as feats normally should be, if only for the person it is focused on. Instead of having to hunt around for a super-specific feat that has a thin book written around it (how many Complete Deva feats do you think can be included in a feats chapter: 15? 20?), I can crack open the Power book that my character is built upon (Arcane, Martial, or Divine & Primal soon) and go from there.

In short, I have no problem with having specific feats in Arcane Power, because it saves me time and effort. Further, I enjoy the Power series of books entirely because it allows me to cherry-pick and sample for taste all the odd flavors like "Teleporting Eladrin Spear Fighter" that I would otherwise not use: because the Power books are really just "advertisements" for the character concepts they include, as well as being nifty new powers to be built around.

And anyway, the Multiclass, Ritual, and Familiar feats- along with the "Spellscarred" mini-class style feats- serve nicely as the "splashy character-defining feats" that I think you're pining for. I had a Dwarf Fighter multiclassed into Wizard just to get Feather-Fall; He was a Para-Trooper, and it was cool.

 

[LightPhoenix]

To me, it feels like feats don't really live up to their potential as a system. Personally, I suspect that with the introduction of powers, the designers either didn't know what to do with feats, or weren't given enough time/zots to actually develop it more. I think that a lot more could still be done with them, even with the removal of new abilities to powers. I'm just not getting excited by them any more.

I think race-restricted class feats are interesting, but I don't think they're providing enough general class feats, or general feats period.

Heh, how much longer until we won't feel like we need to disclaim posts for fear of a flame war?

3E and 4E can never live in peace until 5E comes out.