Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

[Nifft]

Off topic - sorry, totally a personal pet peeve here. Feel free to ignore. Unless you're bleeding from your hands and feet, the word you were looking for was stigma.

... and even then, you might prefer the word "eczema"*.

Cheers, -- N

*) Especially on a triple word score!

 

[SteveC]

Oh, and as for "They need to market to men!" then explain to me why FATAL has not sold millions.

I have to ask, are you actually serious with that comment? Really? FATAL represents a game targeted at men? If that's the case, then the old Gor novels must have been far more appreciated than they appeared at the time.

Seriously: if FATAL is being set up as the game most aimed at men, then we have definitely found sexism on ENWorld, just perhaps not where we thought it would be. As a man, I find that notion both sexist and offensive. I seriously doubt that's what you intended, but that's what it reads as.

--Steve
(Edited for clarity)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have to ask, are you actually serious with that comment? Really? FATAL represents a game targeted at men? If that's the case, then the old Gor novels must have been far more appreciated than they appeared at the time.

Seriously: if FATAL is being set up as the game most aimed at men, then we have definitely found sexism on ENWorld, just perhaps not where we thought it would be. As a man, I find that notion both sexist and offensive. I seriously doubt that's what you intended, but that's what it reads as.

--Steve
(Edited for clarity)

Actually, I have to agree that F.A.T.A.L. is a game targeted towards men. Its so misogynistic that a woman who enjoys the game should probably be examined for some kind of pathology.

And I can agree that it is so far skewed in that regards that you could make a case for it being the RPG most aimed at men.

However, just because it is "the RPG most aimed at men" doesn't mean its "the RPG aimed at most men." In fact, I'd argue that it is the aimed at a vanishingly small subset of men- virulently misogynistic male gamers.

 

[Cadfan]

FATAL is aimed at men, its just terrible.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

The problem is that this implication may be the log in your own eye, not the mote in say, Gary's, or others who don't care that the drow are a matriarchy or even dare I say it...black-skinned!

Yes, there are folks who clamor that the drow are an example of racism too.

Been that way for a while.

There's a reason for it.

You don't have to argue that the drow having black skin, female rulers, and oppressed men means that Gary (or anyone else who contributed to the drow) intended to say that women being in charge or having black skin is evil.

However, why do the drow have black skin? Because "black" is associated with "evil" in the Western culture to which Gary (and the others) belonged. It was a not-uncommon theory for a very long time that black people were "cursed" with dark skin because of the sins of their ancestor or a flaw in their nature.

It's not even that "black = evil" is necessarily a bad idea in itself; it's just symbolism and has no inherent moral weight. However, in our society the fact that "dark = evil" has been used as a weapon against people with dark skin, so when you present an entire race of elves who are different from regular elves because they are a) evil and b) dark-skinned, you absolutely summon up the very same associations.

Likewise, it's not the idea of an evil matriarchy that oppresses its male citizens that's problematic, it's the idea that the only matriarchy around is evil and oppresses its menfolk that is the problem. Gary, I'm sure, wasn't saying outright that any society ruled by women is naturally going to be evil and oppressive of men, but the suggestion, as unintentional as it may have been, is unfortunate: that societies ruled by men may be good or evil as their cultures dictate, but it seems like there's only one society ruled by women and it's full of evil sadists!

Nobody reasonable accuses Gary or anyone who wrote about the drow of being anti-black, anti-woman jerkbags. We can still recognise the problems in the drow race without suggesting it was intentional.

 

[S'mon]

However, in our society the fact that "dark = evil" has been used as a weapon against people with dark skin

I have seen this claimed, but I have never encountered it, even in historical documents. It seems to me to be a false meme. Albinos = evil, OTOH...

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I have seen this claimed, but I have never encountered it, even in historical documents. It seems to me to be a false meme. Albinos = evil, OTOH...

Curse of Ham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway, I just wanted to add to my post:

I don't think the evil drow being black or matriarchal is the result of any kind of agenda on the part of Gary or other creators. I think it's far more likely to have been an unconscious product of their cultural context - a context which is full of problems.

 

[S'mon]

Curse of Ham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah, I've seen the claim, what I have not seen is anyone, ever, within Western civilisation* actually saying "black skin tone indicates evil". Not even the Nazis.

*Hindu mythology may be different. Although again I've seen local Islamic literature claiming this (attempting to convert dark-skinned Hindus to Islam) but I've not seen it in any actual source material.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have seen this claimed, but I have never encountered it, even in historical documents. It seems to me to be a false meme.

Well, Dark = Evil is a popular western meme- villains wear black hats, sometimes even black clothing. Evil magic- Black Magic, aka "The Dark arts." Black Knight, "black rage", Black Death, Black Dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_dog_(ghost)) ...the list goes on.

In early American literature, you find references to the "dark forests" in which the feared unknown- or even known, if they were on bad terms with the local Native Americans- lurked for the unwary. And, of course, there was "deepest, darkest Africa..."

When applied to race, its not so cut & dried, though.

In the East, a light skin was often associated with aristocracy, whereas those of dark skin were obviously field hands & laborers. IOW, it wasn't about race, it was about social status.

In the West, the guys who wrote the histories were usually the Caucasians, who, once they ventured outside of Europe and Asia, kept conquering societies that were composed of darker skinned individuals. Over time, some of them started equating the accident of their relatively advanced society with innate superiority.

Dark wasn't so much a descriptor of evil so much as a marker of inferiority.

(Nice catch on the Curse of Ham, BTW.)

But...

...what I have not seen is anyone, ever, within Western civilisation* actually saying "black skin tone indicates evil".

The Nazis missed this one, but the KKK and some other American white supremacists didn't. Most of them don't go beyond calling us inferior, but some do, with rhetoric claiming that we are so inherently flawed that any of us could commit the most heinous of crime at any time, that we are the sole source of societal ills in this country. Those guys believe in the death penalty for minorities in the US, with them being Judge, jury and executioner- no trial necessary.

Albinos = evil,

No joke- there have been so many negative depictions of albinos in American movies over the past 20 years, that there is actually an organization that protests them when they pop up.

 

[S'mon]

Well, Dark = Evil is a popular western meme- villains wear black hats, sometimes even black clothing. Evil magic- Black Magic, aka "The Dark arts." Black rage, Black Death, Black Dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_dog_(ghost))...the list goes on.

In early American literature, you find references to the "dark forests" in which the feared unknown- or even known, if they were on bad terms with the local Native Americans- lurked for the unwary. And, of course, there was "deepest, darkest Africa..."

When applied to race, its not so cut & dried, though.

(snip)

In the West, the guys who wrote the histories were usually the Caucasians, who, once they ventured outside of Europe and Asia, kept conquering societies that were composed of darker skinned individuals. Over time, some of them started equating the accident of their relatively advanced society with innate superiority.

Dark wasn't so much a descriptor of evil so much as a marker of inferiority.

Yes, this tallies with my experience. The meme in Western culture is dark skin = inferior, not dark skin = evil.