Opinions about Raise Dead, Resurrection, Reincarnation...

[Amazing Mumford]

OK, I would like to get a thread going with some opinions about how gaming groups handle the particular issue of bringing the dead back to life. If this topic has been extensively discussed recently, someone please direct to me to that thread-- I don't think this has been a recent topic.

I know there are many schools of thought on this topic, I will try to list what I think are the top three:

1) These spells are regular spells in the PH and should be able to be used whenever, i.e. raise dead is a 5th-lvl cleric spell and as long as the components are there it shouldn't be any more difficult to cast than say flame strike or hallow. Any cleric can pray for these spells, and provided the cost is covered any temple will cast the spells on any deceased character.

2) These spells are restricted and only used in dire emergencies or extreme/unusual situations, as most societies accept that death is a part of life, and bringing back the dead is defying the natural order of things.

3) Situational. For example a temple of a LG god wouldn't bring back a CE character, but usually would for a NG, LG, or LN character.

I know these three situations do not begin to cover all possibilities, I am just trying to use them as a starting point. Personally, in my campaign, I like to use an option somewhere between 2 and 3.

Here's my view: If clerics and temples went around bringing the dead back to life, then why are there dead people?? I clearly understand that the common person cannot afford this service, but what about nobles and royalty? Why, for example, is King Azoun IV dead in the Forgotten Realms? Surely there must be at least one cleric around who could raise him! I think that these 4 main spells (raise dead, reincarnate, resurrection, true resurrection) should only become available under unusual circumstances. I DM that the gods do not grant these particular powers unless there is an unusual exception, because of the sanctity of life and death. Also, in my campaign temples do not perform this service on non-faith members. Maybe, if there are extreme unusual circumstances might a high-level cleric of Lathander for example bring a good character back to life who doesn't necessarily worship Lathander-- but certainly not a neutral or evil one. I think gods expect their followers to die-- look at Valhalla, for example.

So this brings into play, what about the players? Of course I want them to have fun, and therein lies the dilemma. Say an encounter goes badly and half the party dies, and a PC really likes his character-- do I totally deny him/her any chance to bring the PC back? Would it even be "in-character" that the PC would want to be raised? Remember Sturm Brightblade from Dragonlance, who died honorably defending a castle against a blue dragon? I feel that if that were a PC, then in-character that would be an "acceptable" way to go, honor and glory and all. But what if that same player has a PC and rolls a "1" on a save or die trap on some door handle near the beginning of City of the Spider-Queen adventure, for example? And the PC has like a +12 Fort save? And what if a PC is a Druid, or Wu Jen-- might that PC not be able to be raised or resurrected, but instead be only able to be reincarnated, because its more along the lines of the nature of the class?? Another reason I limit these spells is because if you can always be brought back to life, then why would you ever be afraid of dying? "Oh well, one of my party members will just slice off a ear/finger/whatever and bring it to the temple... ho hum..." If the fear of dying is there, I feel PC's tend to be a little more cautious, the battle has more tension, and victory is that much sweeter and much more of a relief! I tend to be pretty firm on the divine aspect, but there is always the arcane loopholes like limited wish and wish-- arcane spells not "forbidden" by dieties but be careful how you word them! Of course due to the very high cost in gp and xp I tend not to have NPC wizards willingly throw these around...

Does this seem harsh? Fair or unfair? I know there are penalties with being brought back to life, like with raise dead you're down 1 level and at least 5,000 gp; is that an adequate enough "punishment"?

I am very curious to see how other groups handle this, and to see if everyone is pretty much at a consensus or across the board...

 

[azhrei_fje]

I tailor the death-defying spells to the campaign and the players.

In my Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil we've had 12 character deaths. The first few were, of course, when the party was too low level to bring anyone back (they couldn't cast the spells themselves and they couldn't afford to pay an NPC). After about 5-6 deaths and players moving on to new PCs, I decided that the discontinuity of the story line due to multiple hero changes was too much.

I cut the cost of all death-defying spell components in half. And I used Andy Collins' rule on how being brought back to life caused a special negative level instead of a real level loss.

Of course, RttToEE is a "PC grinder" of the highest order. Any PC who doesn't die at least once only got there because he ran away from every encounter! (Okay, it's not quite that bad, but there's no doubt that it's tough.)

HTH.

 

[aboyd]

I'm fine just letting the players cast those spells whenever they wish. However, to get around the whole "why would anybody ever die" dilemma, I've made clerics rare. Really rare. As in, probably only 1 exists for any given temple. Everyone else at the temple is an NPC Adept class. Something small like a shrine wouldn't even have a cleric at all. So in a town with 2 temples and 5 shrines, you'd expect only 2 clerics to exist. That keeps them rare, busy, and expensive.

 

[Vegepygmy]

1) These spells are regular spells in the PH and should be able to be used whenever, i.e. raise dead is a 5th-lvl cleric spell and as long as the components are there it shouldn't be any more difficult to cast than say flame strike or hallow. Any cleric can pray for these spells, and provided the cost is covered any temple will cast the spells on any deceased character.

3) Situational. For example a temple of a LG god wouldn't bring back a CE character, but usually would for a NG, LG, or LN character.

Combination of 1 and 3 for me.

 

[Jhaelen]

Why, for example, is King Azoun IV dead in the Forgotten Realms? Surely there must be at least one cleric around who could raise him!

Exactly! The Forgotten Realms setting is internally inconsistent and has always been so. Either you don't care and use the setting anyway or you use a different setting.

Eberron, e.g. is one of the few settings that has been trying to offer a more realistic solution to this consistency problem.

 

[Thanee]

Here's my view: If clerics and temples went around bringing the dead back to life, then why are there dead people?? I clearly understand that the common person cannot afford this service, but what about nobles and royalty? Why, for example, is King Azoun IV dead in the Forgotten Realms? Surely there must be at least one cleric around who could raise him!

Surely there is. But if the soul does not want to return, it won't, no matter what.

Bye
Thanee

 

[irdeggman]

Combination of 1 and 3 for me.

Pretty much the same for me.

It should be noted that clerics must have a code of conduct.

PHB pg 33

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god (generally by acting in ways opposed to the god’s alignment or purposes) loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description, page 201).

So it depends on what the god's code of conduct and purposes are. Now if you run deity free clerics then things get real tricky here - but still there needs to be a central purpose for the cleric and guide to behavior.

For example if the cleric worships a god of war - then raising the dead is probably not within the deity's purposes since death is a part of war.

If it is a god of nature - likewise, except that raising the dead would be considered unnatural.

Things like that matter, at least to me.

I know some people do not play games in that manner and instead focus more on mechanic- based play instead of role-playing basis. In that sort of game it makes no sense to try to insert role-playing limitations to actions.

 

[Dyson Logos]

In our 3e campaign Raise Dead was moved up to take over the Resurrection spell slot, and Resurrection moved up further to take over the True Resurrection slot. That certainly reduced how often they were seen in play.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I tried using a nice rule from HoH: a resurrection requires a life to be given up in exchange for the one being resurrected; the spell kills a helpless victim (with at least as many HD as the resurrectee, to prevent 'flyswatter resurrections'). Obviously, this changed things a bit.

 

[DarkelvenSFi]

I think the distinction here is that people still age.. I've always thought that the idea of resurrecting someone doesn't mean they suddenly get a new and young body; they get the old body back with the same life expectancy.

One difference I noticed between 2e and 3e=3.5e was that there aren't really any more elixers that reverse age (or none that I've seen; and I've not really looked either). Not sure how this is meant to change things... because people tend to go up many levels before aging one year.

And thinking about it some more, the reincarnate spell explains that it creates a new body for the soul. Would this then grant a person a new lifetime? Would the aging benefits and penalties apply?

Could a Druid that's about to die of old age, one who's reaped the benefits of old age (wis, int, cha) yet none of the penalties of old age (str, dex, con); due to his timeless body, be able to reincarnate into a new young form? Then age ever so gracefully again; obtaining still more benefits and no penalties for age?

I'd argue that unless there are some extenuating circumstances, the natural life expectancy of a player is it. Some extreme quest for some extra years of life would be needed before it was granted. But by that stage, I'd say that the characters would be bordering a demi-god status or similar... characters either die long before old age, or reach a level of power to make age no longer a problem.