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"HF" vs. "S&S" gaming: the underlying reason of conflict and change in D&D

The S&S influence is in my opinion just loosely associated, perhaps symptomatic but not causal. It's one of those "You might be an X if ..." kind of things. A deeper and clearer influence, I think, is historical wargaming. The roleplaying game was a big enough leap in the 1970s. What has developed in 2E, 3E and 4E has come largely from people to whom D&D was already an established game culture quite distinct from the one from which it emerged.

I see a parallel of sorts in the vogue for card-driven games (CDGs) on historical subjects. The World War One game Paths of Glory is less historically accurate than The Guns of August -- and that's a good thing if one prefers a game that is not a senseless, dull grind of mostly static positions and offensives that produce little but casualties. More generally, though, CDGs tend not to scratch the grognard's itch and old-style designs tend not to be so well received by more casual wargamers with less military-historical interest.
 
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The S&S influence is in my opinion just loosely associated, perhaps symptomatic but not causal. It's one of those "You might be an X if ..." kind of things. A deeper and clearer influence, I think, is historical wargaming. The roleplaying game was a big enough leap in the 1970s. What has developed in 2E, 3E and 4E has come largely from people to whom D&D was already an established game culture quite distinct from the one from which it emerged.

I see a parallel of sorts in the vogue for card-driven games (CDGs) on historical subjects. The World War One game Paths of Glory is less historically accurate than The Guns of August -- and that's a good thing if one prefers a game that is not a senseless, dull grind of mostly static positions and offensives that produce little but casualties. More generally, though, CDGs tend not to scratch the grognard's itch and old-style designs tend not to be so well received by more casual wargamers with less military-historical interest.

I have said many times that the high casuality rate, challenge by death style of Old School gaming is something that was inspired by historical wargaming, not any fictional genre.
 

I have said many times that the high casuality rate, challenge by death style of Old School gaming is something that was inspired by historical wargaming, not any fictional genre.

I think a lot of it had to do with Gygax's play style as well, which is admittedly influenced by war gaming.

Everything I have read about Arenson's games though tells me his table was story focused with a good bit of amateur theatrics.
 

Pretending to be elves slaying dragons is pretending to be elves slaying dragons. Or humans slaying dragons in the case of S&S. What exactly makes High Fantasy 'mythbuilding' and S&S 'a game'? It is all a game, no matter how much you want to elevate one over the other. 'I don't want to get into it now' is a lazy way out of it, and presenting Campbell like it is newfound revelatory end-all-be-all scholarship borders on insulting to what is generally speaking a community of very erudite individuals.



Um. Rationale? This is a very hard sell considering the trappings of the series include:

A starship
A classic 'planetary distress beacon' trope
An ancient alien race, chock full of advanced technology
A living computer
Space colonization

And the list goes on. Arguing that Well World is sword and sorcery seems almost as preposterous as Rowling's assertation that Harry Potter is not fantasy when it contains wizards, dragons and werewolves.


So does Star Wars, yet it is considered fantasy.

The Well World series has centaurs, lizards, shapechangers, sword fights, teleportation, etc. Yes, the underlying principle behind it is science, but it's still deeply in the realm of fantasy. Blackmoor had laser guns, expedition to the barrier peaks had a spaceship, yet they are still fantasy.
 

But Arneson's game also featured "critical hits" that could slay the mightiest figure with one blow. His idea for level advancement was not more HP but better saves to avoid HP loss. That probabilistic approach is less conducive to long term character survival than the management of a growing resource in Gygax's design.
 

Everything I have read about Arenson's games though tells me his table was story focused with a good bit of amateur theatrics.
Really? I didn't know that. That's interesting.
But Arneson's game also featured "critical hits" that could slay the mightiest figure with one blow. His idea for level advancement was not more HP but better saves to avoid HP loss. That probabilistic approach is less conducive to long term character survival than the management of a growing resource in Gygax's design.
All that means is he liked that mechanic better for whatever reason. And I also think you're hanging too much importance on the probability that a single mechanic would introduce and what that means to the bigger picture of genre emulation preferences. In other words, I don't think it has any relevence to that question. Also, I never get the impression that the early designers did much probability analysis in their mechanics design anyway; they came up with mechanics that they either liked for their flavor, aesthetic or elegance.

Also, survivability depends on too many things. I've played Call of Cthulhu campaigns that had better PC surviveability than D&D campaigns.

:shrug:
 

So does Star Wars, yet it is considered fantasy.

The Well World series has centaurs, lizards, shapechangers, sword fights, teleportation, etc. Yes, the underlying principle behind it is science, but it's still deeply in the realm of fantasy. Blackmoor had laser guns, expedition to the barrier peaks had a spaceship, yet they are still fantasy.

Star Wars is Space Opera. It's not even Science Fantasy, it's straight Space Opera.

Both Well World series are science fiction. All of the fantastical things you mention are explained by science (well, hand wavy science) not the supernatural. Next I suppose you'll say that Darkover is fantasy. Or that the Council Wars with it's orcs and elves and dragons and ixth... ixcth... manta monsters, and psychotic minilop is fantasy (it's not, it so, so is not). Or that Pern is fantasy.

As for Blackmoor, it's such a crazy mash up that it gets labeled fantasy after the primary element for ease of use.
 

And I also think you're hanging too much importance on the probability that a single mechanic would introduce and what that means to the bigger picture of genre emulation preferences.
NONE AT ALL is "too much importance"??? I did not say a thing about genre emulation! And it's more than a single mechanic; I mentioned two -- and that's leaving out hit locations, for a start on other Arnesonian rules. I've played Arneson's Adventures in Fantasy, and I've played RuneQuest; my statement on the consequences of the "any hit can kill" approach is well founded.
 

Nothing I have read about Arneson's campaign suggests that it was more "story focused" than Gygax's. The First Fantasy Campaign reveals a setup with a grand-strategic focus on military and economic factors -- in the hands of players, not the GM! If indeed his game was more plot-driven, then one might (if one wished to make much of the "genre" business) wonder whether it is also true that he was more a fan of TLOTR.
 
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