ignore

[renau1g]

removed

 

[Don Incognito]

No.

We're about to allow Melee Training in PHB2. Having a strong basic attack is not the same as having a strong at-will melee attack.

 

[renau1g]

No.

We're about to allow Melee Training in PHB2. Having a strong basic attack is not the same as having a strong at-will melee attack.

Well as I stated in the first post, that class benefits much more than the ranged classes do from Reaper's touch and as I stated above it follows Covaithe's rationale for why the Reaper's Touch feat was not allowed. Homogeneous characters are not desired (thankfully) so this feat serves the same purpose for the swordmage

The reason is not power level or effectiveness it's the fact that it creates a feat tax (same as expertise, and same as Reaper's Touch).

If you want to talk about power levels My warlock has yet to be involved in a situation where he'd need his basic at-will, but my swordmage I play in RL has made extensive use of the INtelligent Blademaster feat.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

I say no,

first of all it's irrelievent to ban it since Melee Training will replace it,

secondly it's not as required as expertise and isn't rolebreaking like reaper's touch.

 

[Oni]

No.

We're about to allow Melee Training in PHB2. Having a strong basic attack is not the same as having a strong at-will melee attack.

I'm not really sure that I see the difference. Could I ask you to elaborate?

 

[renau1g]

I believe what Don's referring to (and feel free to correct me) is that Reaper's Touch allows you to use one of your ranged at wills with a range of melee touch, whereas melee training still only lets you use your regular melee weapons.

 

[Don Incognito]

Took the words right outta my mouth, ren.

 

[Oni]

I believe what Don's referring to (and feel free to correct me) is that Reaper's Touch allows you to use one of your ranged at wills with a range of melee touch, whereas melee training still only lets you use your regular melee weapons.

Yes, but in practice I'm still having a trouble drawing a distinction.

You can attack ref (in most cases) or attack AC with a prof. bonus.

You'll do about the same amount of damage (i.e. 2d4 MM vs 1d8 of a quarterstaff). (The only one with any kind of notably higher damage potential, also targets Fort, the worst NAD against the sort of things you'd normally find yourself in melee with in the first place).

Reaper's Touch means upkeeping less items (unless you're using a weapon as an implement and everyone's pretty much got that ability now)

Where as Melee Training means you don't have to pick specific at will to use it.

Seems like it's pretty much a wash to me. Is there a convincing argument that every invoker, sorcerer, warlock and wizard is going to pick up Reaper's Touch, but wouldn't give Melee Training the same consideration? I'm honestly at a loss as to how Reaper's Touch is ban-worthy, but Melee Training readily acceptable.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

You can find the reasoning behind Reaper's Touch vs Melee Training in the Dragon 372 proposal.

If I remember correctly, technically Intelligent Blademaster allows the swordmage to use INT with thrown weapons too.

I think the idea of banning this feat and/or melee training rediculous to the extreme. Non-strength defenders practically need this feat to do their job. Warlords really want this feat so they can work well with all the melee strikers. I know I wouldn't be playing a Swordmage in my RL group if this feat didn't exist, and a retroactive ban would screw over any existing Swordmages. Granted, as far as I know there's only one Swordmage around, but that's still enough for me to be as opposed to this proposal as a non-judge can be.

And not just because the one Swordmage is in the game I'm playing .

 

[Oni]

You can find the reasoning behind Reaper's Touch vs Melee Training in the Dragon 372 proposal.

The reasoning there seem to either boil down to A) Too powerful, or B) casters shouldn't have melee attacks because it spoils tactical choice.

I basically addressed point A already above, so you could say I'm largely unconvinced (though I don't expect I'll convince anybody myself either).

If you accept point B (I don't), it renders Melee Training unacceptable.