Goodman rebuttal

[Rechan]

Also, if 4E is doing as well as 3E was - why aren't more 3PPs jumping on board?

Perhaps:

They don't like 4e.
They don't like the GSL.
They waited too long on the GSL and gave up.
The common wisdom is 4e is doing badly, so they aren't interested.

 

[jdrakeh]

But presumably they're coming from the only entity that would know (TSR) and so are at least as reliable as anyone else's data.

That is a good point — and one that I completely overlooked. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

 

[Odhanan]

So are we now doubting Joe Goodman's word because he has vested interest in seeing his company earn a profit, which right now is tied to the health of the 4e market?

Short answer? Yes, we absolutely can, based on this set of parameters.

 

[Shroomy]

Perhaps:

They don't like 4e.
They don't like the GSL.
They waited too long on the GSL and gave up.
The common wisdom is 4e is doing badly, so they aren't interested.

Or the conception of 3PP ends with Green Ronin, Paizo, Goodman Games, Necromancer, Mongoose, and Malhavoc.

 

[Remathilis]

Perhaps:

They don't like 4e.
They don't like the GSL.
They waited too long on the GSL and gave up.
The common wisdom is 4e is doing badly, so they aren't interested.

I'll give you the first three, but the last isn't so common (as JG is trying to point out) and shouldn't be repeated as gospel.

Remathilis "But it said so on the internet!" Ooi.

 

[Rechan]

Or the conception of 3PP ends with Green Ronin, Paizo, Necromancer, Mongoose, and Malhavoc.

One Bad Egg seems to be going strong.

The guy in charge of it posts the company's monthly earnings on his blog, even.

 

[Psion]

Perhaps:

They don't like 4e.
They don't like the GSL.
They waited too long on the GSL and gave up.
The common wisdom is 4e is doing badly, so they aren't interested.

Is it?

I thought #2 and #3 were the common wisdom.

#1, I've seen some small publishers that think that. And some (including some I respect a bunch) who lurve 4e.

#4 seems silly. Even if 4e is half the sales of 3e, it's still an order of magnitude more sales that most 3pps ever see, so I wouldn't see why that would be a driving factor.

 

[Rechan]

I#1, I've seen some small publishers that think that.

Some SMALL publishers?

Paizo. Green Ronin. Malhovic.

 

[joethelawyer]

He states very clearly in the post that he accessed sales figures included in court documents from various lawsuits TSR was involved in throughout the years. Whether those numbers are "hard, objective and concrete" is, I suppose, debatable. But presumably they're coming from the only entity that would know (TSR) and so are at least as reliable as anyone else's data.

The thing is, having worked in courts, and seen a bit of the legal arena, those types of records typically do not make it into the official court record. I don't now how it is in other states, but in Connecticut sensitive financial information is often sealed. The sort of detailed information he refers to is usually passed back and forth as part of the discovery process between the lawyers and not given to the court. They may make it into the court record as exhibits once a case goes to trial, but from what I remember most of the old TSR cases settled before going to court. Also, the courts in CT throw out old exhibits after a certain period of time, 4 months after a case goes to judgment. Space is limited in courthouses, and they cant afford the space to store old exhibits. There are always transcripts of the court proceedings once a case went to trial, but you have to pay a lot for those, and like I said, I thought most of them settled before trial anyhow. Lastly, he could have gotten them from the litigants themselves, but I would assume that any decent attorney would have, as part of the settlement agrement, also gotten everyone to sign confidentiality agreements as to any sensitive financial information shared as part of the case.

He mentions the Dave Arneson cases, where he sued for royalties. I assume the sales figures he says he read were in the Complaint filed by Arneson. A Complaint is a court document that starts a case. It contains alegatons of truth, not the truth itself. The other side of the case files what is known here as an Answer, wherein they usually deny the allegations in the Complaint. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. If they settle out of court, we generally never find out the truth. We just know the case is dropped and withdrawn.

I did a quick search for cases Arneson was named in which there was an actual decision available electronically. Keep in mind that a lot of older cases are not available electronically, and you have to physically get them from the courthouse in some manner. I attached them below. I can't seem to find anything really meaningful he can use ass reliable benchmark in them. But, it was a quick search. He apparently spent more than just the 5 minutes I did doing this research. Like I said, I'd like to see what he uses for his figures, as well as where he got them, not just a list of sources used.

Again, my experience is in CT. It may be different in other states.

Like I said, I'd love to see his book.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

Excellent. Thank you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Fiery Dragon putting out the Tome of Horrors 4e?

They did the Creature Collection, and have license for the Scarred Lands, but I never heard of them getting the Necro stuff.

The Creature Collection is amazing by the way. Got my print copy day before yesterday. Great stuff.

OK, back to regular topic.