Proposal: Time Gold

[Lord Sessadore]

Yes, time gold isn't meant to repair inequalities in character wealth. Rather, it's intended to ensure that characters get a guaranteed amount of treasure for roughly 50% of the XP they receive.

I'm not sure we can come up with a system to iron out differences in character wealth that still has the simplicity of time gold. The best thing I can think of is to strongly encourage DMs to look at their players' sheets and see who is behind and who is not, and then bias rewards towards those who are behind until they have caught up. For such purposes, I don't think DMs need to follow the parcel system to the letter either - IMHO they're awarding parcels from previous levels, so it doesn't 'count' for the parcels in their adventure.

For example, if you find you have a PC in your party who is level 2 and over halfway to level 3 who doesn't have a single magic item and hardly any gold (and there are a couple characters like that in L4W, unfortunately), I'd encourage the DM to hand out an extra item to that character over and above whatever other treasure they had planned. Make a note of it to the judge (something like, "this isn't technically part of the adventure loot, this is just to get character X more in line with where they should be"), and carry on as if that item was given in a past adventure.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I understand, but I was not talking of adressing existing inequalities (For which Sessadore's suggestion of handing extra items over the standard loot is sound).

I was talking of adressing inequalities created during the adventure by the sharing of the loot. If Time Gold is a guaranteed individual award, it does nothing to prevent new inequalities. In terms of balance between characters, little is gained.

i.e.

5 adventurers, 5 parcel of treasures : 3 items and 300 gold for 500 XP

Three guys get items, they agree to let the other two guys keep all the gold (they better!)

PC 1 : 1000 gold (Level 5 item)
PC 2 : 680 gold (Level 3 item)
PC 3 : 520 gold (Level 2 item)
PC 4 : 150 gold
PC 5: 150 gold

They also gain 500 XP in time for 6 month. Let's now add time gold: 378 go each

PC 1 : 1378 gp
PC 2 : 1058 gp
PC 3 : 898 gp
PC 4 : 528 gp
PC 5 : 528 gp

PC 4 and 5 are less pitiful than they used to an can now buy something but PC 5 has a level 5 items and can buy a level 1 on top of that! He still rules over everybody else. In term of game balance, we still have a problem and the only thing that has changed is that there is more wealth in circulation but we will keep on creating little rockfeller. Get lucky two adventure in a row and you are now annoyingly superior to your team mates for a year or so at least.

Instead if that time gold is pooled : 1890 gold and then shared fairly, Itemless PCs get a bigger share:

PC 1 : 1000 gp
PC2 : 820 gp (+140 gp)
PC 3 : 870 gp (+350 gp)
PC 4: 850 gp (+700 gp)
PC 5: 850 gp (+700 gp)

That's roughly fair and no substantial inequalities have been created by this adventure.

---

That being said, that scenario still has a weakness whether you try to equalize wealth or use the Bill Gates method; There is now more gold in circulation than is recommended for level 1. That's because expensive items are factored twice; when they are handed and in the Time Gold. A DM who hands ou the items I mentioned +300 gp has awarded in 5 parcel the equivalent of 2500 gp which is subtsantially more than half of the recommanded value for a level. Basically, not all parcels are worth the same, hence the problem. The reverese would be true if a DM just handed a few gold parcels and the cheapest magic item (like parcel 4, 6,7, 8 and 10 : 980 gp) but that is an unlikely scenario. DM like to give magic items so we are more likely to see inflation.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

Ok, I've checked Sessadore's math. Only thing is in 4E whenever there's a fraction you round down, so it should be:

L1 = 62 / month
L2 = 89 / month
L3 = 126 / month
L4 = 174 / month
L5 = 233 / month
L6 = 313 / month
L7 = 446 / month
L8 = 633 / month
L9 = 873 / month
L10 = 1166 / month
(etc)

The difference is levels 1, 3, 4, 7 and 10 get 1 gp less per month. Woo.

YES to either my table or Sessadore's, whichever everyone else prefers, and with the addition that it's made clear in the charter that DM's can choose to award some or all of the time gold in-character, so long as it's all awarded by the time the time XP is given out.

 

[Phoenix8008]

I understand, but I was not talking of adressing existing inequalities (For which Sessadore's suggestion of handing extra items over the standard loot is sound).

I was talking of adressing inequalities created during the adventure by the sharing of the loot. If Time Gold is a guaranteed individual award, it does nothing to prevent new inequalities. In terms of balance between characters, little is gained.

i.e. ..... snipped for length

I understand where you are coming from Mal. I don't know if a system of the sort that would be needed could be devised and work or not. Personally I think that DM's just need to look at the PC's in their adventures and work on balancing things out the best they can. As for myself, I keep track of the total magic item levels of all my PC's and try to balance it as I go. This is about to get tougher as my next adventure will have four of the PC's from my previous adventure (at level 3, 3, 3, and 4 due to DM points spent) and two new PC's each at level 1.

If the DM's can't keep it balanced themselves, then we would just have to make an IC system to monitor and control the balance so that everything is 'fair'. I'm sure Tonk would happily volunteer to be Chairman of the People's Demokratic Wealth Redistribution Center. He'll just collect all gold and magic items from all adventurers when they return to the Hanged Man and then distribute them fairly back to the people. And if they decline, he will bash them with his club until they are happy conforming socialists. (This last paragraph was only a joke that came to mind. Please ignore it as anything other than that. I really have no solution besides DM's being responsible for balancing things out themselves. )

 

[stonegod]

Another system

FYI: We're talking about this over on LEB. I know the time-gold system just passed over here, but I'd like to share it to get comments (especially from L4W judge types) as we consider it over there.

I like a "treasure parcel of 5" system where the DM, instead of giving 10 treasure parcels with a total value equal to that number gives a single treasure parcel to each player per level, this treasure parcel contains an item of n+x level or gold of n lvl. Each level the player gets via time XP, get gets to choose a parcel so long as he has not received one already.

At the end of 5 levels, every player should be able to account for each parcel he received and would have 1 lvl +4 item, 1 lvl +3 item, one lvl +2 item, one lvl +1 item, and one set of cash equal to lvl. So long as you record which parcel you received at level up [I.E. a level 5 character might have an item section that looked like so]

lvl 1:
Lvl +2 item[lvl 3 item = X]

Lvl 2:
Lvl n of gold [520 cash and goods]

Lvl 3:
Lvl +4 item[lvl 7 item]

Lvl 4:
Lvl +1 Item[lvl 5 item]

Lvl 5:
No parcel received yet

And when he received a parcel it would necessarily be a lvl +2 item, a second lvl 7 item. Then once he hit lvl 6, this would start again.

Since each player in a 5 person party can expect, assuming an equal distribution of wealth between them all, to get 4 items of level n+4,3,2,1 and a set of gold equal to lvl n per 5 levels[5 players get that distribution 5 times between levels 1 and hitting lvl 6] you're still on the item wealth progression path, but you're not necessarily stuck with lower items than you might otherwise be when dealing with the interplus levels

This meshes with my idea of how Eberron plays out in adventures as well, with rewards coming in large chunks rather than trickling in, but that is a personal thing.

It has additional benefits in that players can choose the parcels they want when they create a character over 1st level, which will slightly increase their wealth, but greatly bring together the expected wealth of the players accross the different starting levels.

So long as a DM is cognizant of what a player has and may want, it also means that DM's don't need to feel bad about handing out a lot (or a little) of treasure, since, instead of treasure being based on playing and time separately, its pegged to what level you are. If you level up before receiving a parcel from your DM in the game, you choose one. If you receive a parcel before you level up you don't choose one.

Simple accounting of what is chosen each level keeps wealth distribution in line with all the levels and makes it easier for DM's to assign treasure based on who is in the party for multi-level parties. Instead of having to wonder how the party might split the gold, they simply give out an item explicitly for one player at that players level + something they haven't received yet, or give one player an item they can sell equivalent to the cost of an item of their level.

That all being said, i can understand the advantages of the time gold method.

The system is fairly simple to follow (always a good thing). Of course, there are some caveats I see:

1. It does constrain DMs significantly in what they can give out. On advantage of the current system (excluding time) is that one can mix different parcels together on the gold size for different effects. This is a somewhat minor issue (I think), but it is there.
2. The "when character levels, they get any parcels they would have gotten outstanding" will sit poorly with DMs when that happens during their adventure (I prefer our system to be as reasonably hands-off as possible). A system where a PC essentially gets an IOU (i.e., choose the parcel they would get but the DM actually rewards the item at some point of their choosing in game) would work better and still keep the core of the system.
3. It reduces (significantly) the amount of gold a PC will get. If I read it correctly, a PC will only get any gold from an adventure once every 5 levels. There are a lot of incidentals a PC needs to pay for (enchantment of items, rituals, etc.). While one can sweep some of the lower cost items under the rug, the larger items are more difficult.
4. Its underspreading wealth. In a level, parcels of items n+1, n+2, n+3, n+4, and gp (or equivalent) or 2*(item n in gold) are given. You give out the first 5, but not the last.
5. The system is built around 5 PC parties. This is not always the case.
6. Remember, not all parties will be the same. I might have a party of one set of people and then another set the next level. In the worst case scenario, 5 folks that have been in different parties levels 1-4 who have gotten all the same parcels in those separate groups will be stuck (forced to do an 'unbalanced pick') if they are all together at 5th level. Yes, this is a perverse corner case but its important to think about them.

Of these, the third one is the most important. It essentially kills the alchemy/ritual component/potion/etc. market as when someone needs those, they'll almost never have the cash on hand. However, the solution seems to speak for itself in the fourth point: There's an extra bit of gp worth gold of level n that should be distributed equally per level.

So, this system has some promise. But I want to here from more folks (and I'm going to link this post in L4W to get some feedback from there as well) before committing to this.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

Woah, forgot about this proposal when I was doing my big sweep yesterday.

So yeah, it passed a while ago. (Using Lord Sessadore's table which was rounded up, not mine which was rounded down, since there were 2 votes for his and 1 vote for either.) I think judges and DM's should decide on a case-by-case basis whether it applies to adventures that are already running, but it definitely applies to any new adventures that start.

I'm kind of busy today, can somebody else update the charter?

 

[garyh]

Since DM Credits being used for XP officially passed as being a valid way to collect time gold, but was not specifically cited as being retroactive, I make the followed related proposal:

Proposal

Make Time Gold for XP gained via DM Credits turned in retroactive.

The only person this affects is me.

Come on, everybody, Hrav needs a new neck slot item!

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Firstly: YES to DM credit gold for Hrav.

Secondly: my initial response to Goumindong's idea from that thread:

Holy wall-of-text, Batman!

More seriously, that does sound like a system that is pretty able to keep treasure distribution consistent in a PbP living world.

However, your math is off. Well, not your math, necessarily, but the numbers you're using for your math. Stonegod was correct - you're under-rewarding the gold parcels. The DMG rewards gold over the course of a level equal to (an item of level n)*2. That is, you get 720 gp total gold over level 1, not 360 gp, and the same pattern repeats for every level.

Also, characters who get their gold at level 1 or 2 will have much less gold than what they'd recieve in a 'normal' game following the DMG parcels, and characters getting their gold at levels 4 and 5 will have significantly more. Over levels 1-5, each character should get about 1359 gold. So, even doubling the gold amounts in your proposal to match what's in the DMG, 720 gp for a level 1 gold parcel is a far cry behind, and 2000 gp for a level 5 parcel is a good deal ahead. Keep in mind that that 720 gp has to fund all of their cash-requiring expenses through to level 6 (which can be a very, very long time in PbP). I think the guy who gets his gold at level 5 is in an even worse position, though, because he's essentially dirt-poor until then, unless he wants to sell one of his item parcels for 20% value. He can't buy any potions, rituals, alchemy, or even spare equipment until level 5, and that is crippling.

I like leaving it in the hands of the DM, though. Your earlier presentations of this system had all the treasure selection done by the players, which left a bad taste in my mouth. While I'm all for wish lists and character-appropriate non-randomized treasure and all that good stuff, as a player I don't want to explicitly pick what I get and when. It's like getting to pick your own Christmas present and when you get to open it - no fun at all.

I think what stonegod meant by his point #2 was that DMs won't like it if the rules are "if my character reaches a new level without getting a reward parcel, I get to pick the one I want and recieve it right now, despite the fact that we're in the middle of an abandoned wing of the Dungeon of Doom with no treasure to speak of anywhere nearby." If I'm not mistaken, he was suggesting that instead of that, the DMs award an IOU - something like, "I know you didn't get your parcel for that level, but it's coming soon. Sit tight and I'll get it to you when it fits the game." I agree with him on that point, but I'm not sure his interpretation is necessarily what you meant. Good to check, though.

Also, I think what stonegod meant by his point #1 was that DMs are constrained in rewarding by this system. For starters, they can't use the oh-so-common "do this job and I'll give you guys X gold to split", because the gold all has to go to one character, according to your system. To deal with this, I think it would be good to keep your system with the gold parcels as-is, and reward the other chunk of gold equal to a level n item as a split reward between each character. That way everyone has some gold if they need it, and it gives DMs a little more flexibility in their treasure planning.

I think the system definitely has the potential to work for a PbP Living World, but I also think it needs a little tweaking or refining before it's officially adopted. What do others think of it?

Edit: there is more discussion happening in the LEB transition thread, including a response from Goumindong. I was just too lazy to repeat comments I'd already made once

 

[JoeNotCharles]

Since we JUST adopted our own time gold thing, I think we should all go over to the Eberron thread to discuss that idea, and then re-propose it here after it's been nicely hashed out there if we're still interested in it. No need to keep copying responses to two separate threads.

 

[Tomalak]

I'm not sure we can come up with a system to iron out differences in character wealth that still has the simplicity of time gold. The best thing I can think of is to strongly encourage DMs to look at their players' sheets and see who is behind and who is not, and then bias rewards towards those who are behind until they have caught up. For such purposes, I don't think DMs need to follow the parcel system to the letter either - IMHO they're awarding parcels from previous levels, so it doesn't 'count' for the parcels in their adventure.

Why not make a single chart describing how much gold a character should have when reaching any given level. Since a player has to resubmit his character for approval when he levels, you can double-check during that process whether their character is getting a fair amount of treasure. If not, it can be corrected.

I don't think time gold is a bad plan, but it seems overly complicated to me...


(BTW, I am new, so not alot of posts, but I have been reading up on how you do things here, and I'm excited to start playing soon)