Proposal: Time Gold
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Waitaminute. The DM credit also granting wealth is common sense. When I read the system sometime last week I immediately thought : well that will lead to underequipped PC mighty quick. The solution mentioned is to the dot the one I imagined. So far so good.
But why would this automaticall apply to standard time XP? What if the DM planned for it?
The adventure I designed is probably going to generate around 800xp so I intend to distribute 8 parcels, most of it in an award ceremony. No need for time gold. Hopefully that time gold system is not mandatory.
While on the subject, I'd point out a weakness of the parcel system; it assumes 8 to 10 encounter to a level and demands you distribute the parcels more or less evenly. Forget time XP for a minute; even in good ole tabletop D&D, not every DM follows that pattern of 8 to 10 encounter. Some DM mostly dispense with level equivalent or less. Me, amongst others. I just planned 3 fights worth 500xp to each player in total for an adventure. Following the guideline I should give 3 to 4 parcels but common sense dictate I should give 5. My real average to one level is about 6 encounter, not 8, never mind 10. Overall, due to the slow nature of PbP I suspect most DM also create more meaningful and therefore harder fights too. Of course, I have adapted to this but I am not sure every DM does and so that is another factor that explains the high percentage of underequipped PC.
In my mind, the simplest way to account for this is simply to take the total XP earned by one player during the adventure (including time xp), divide by the total XP required for one level for the average party level and simply hand out that proportion of the total number of parcels you are supposed to hand out for one level.
So a group of level 1 earning 800xp each deserve 8 parcels. This accounts both for time and the oft forgotten difficulty factor.
I think a judge at the end of the adventure should make that calculation and see if the DM fell short. Only then do you need time gold.
But why would this automaticall apply to standard time XP? What if the DM planned for it?
The adventure I designed is probably going to generate around 800xp so I intend to distribute 8 parcels, most of it in an award ceremony. No need for time gold. Hopefully that time gold system is not mandatory.
While on the subject, I'd point out a weakness of the parcel system; it assumes 8 to 10 encounter to a level and demands you distribute the parcels more or less evenly. Forget time XP for a minute; even in good ole tabletop D&D, not every DM follows that pattern of 8 to 10 encounter. Some DM mostly dispense with level equivalent or less. Me, amongst others. I just planned 3 fights worth 500xp to each player in total for an adventure. Following the guideline I should give 3 to 4 parcels but common sense dictate I should give 5. My real average to one level is about 6 encounter, not 8, never mind 10. Overall, due to the slow nature of PbP I suspect most DM also create more meaningful and therefore harder fights too. Of course, I have adapted to this but I am not sure every DM does and so that is another factor that explains the high percentage of underequipped PC.
In my mind, the simplest way to account for this is simply to take the total XP earned by one player during the adventure (including time xp), divide by the total XP required for one level for the average party level and simply hand out that proportion of the total number of parcels you are supposed to hand out for one level.
So a group of level 1 earning 800xp each deserve 8 parcels. This accounts both for time and the oft forgotten difficulty factor.
I think a judge at the end of the adventure should make that calculation and see if the DM fell short. Only then do you need time gold.
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TwoHeadsBarking
First Post
Uh, no, it doesn't. Ok, it does give guidelines for how to distribute the parcels if you have 8-10 encounters, but there's nothing mechanical about the parcel system that only works with 8-10 encounters. Also, even with the 8-10 assumption, it suggests combining parcels so that some encounters give lots of treasure and some give none, which is hardly demanding even distribution.
Moon_Goddess
Have I really been on this site for over 20 years!
But how will you know how much time xp to account for?
You won't know how much time xp till it's all over, so unless you do an awarding ceremony of handing out treasure at the end you cannot simply account for time xp. Not all adventure stories allow for treasure awarded at the end, in general I prefer for the characters to find things during the adventure rather than the end.
As for your adventure you described above, you say 3 encounters 500xp, that could run anywhere from 4-6 months, so that could be as much as 1000xp when your all done, but you just don't know
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
As a matter of fact, I do plan an award ceremony for this specific adventure! Everything comes at the end with a medal and a big pat on the shoulders.
But still, as I said, have already estimated it would earn 800xp total so in a more traditional treasure distribution I could spread the parcels over the encounters, adjusting in the very last encounter (by witholding or adding) if needed. All you need is a conservative estimate of time.
I really like handing out parcels! Time gold is just so impersonal.
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Be that as it may, it still seems common for DM to under reward, failing to account for difficulty.
How many DM give almost 2 parcel an encounter? Not many.
How many DM creates fight so challenging that it takes an average of 6 to a level? Quite a few.
Really, all I am saying is that maybe a judge at the end of the adventure should take a peek at the proportion of parcels that should have been handed considering the proportion of 1 level that the adventures covered. I suspect that underrewarding for challenge is as endemic as underrewarding for time.
covaithe
Explorer
I don't know of any DMs who give out one parcel after each encounter. I've certainly never considered such a thing. I suppose I might if I was running a game from a published module where it was already laid out that way, but I certainly wouldn't go to any trouble for it.
What this proposal allows us judges to do is to match up the treasure to the number of encounters proposed. If you give us an adventure proposal with 3 encounters totalling 500 xp for level 1 characters, we can check at submission time that you plan to give 5 packets worth of treasure. Then it doesn't matter if your adventure takes 1 month or 6 months, the time gold makes it so that the characters come out all right at the end.
It's a good question whether or not a DM should be allowed to hand out magic items in lieu of time gold. I imagine it would be fine in most cases, as long as no player came out of an adventure having earned less total treasure than the amount of time gold they're due. After all, the point of this is to help cover the players when the DM doesn't plan ahead; when they do plan ahead I think it's reasonable to leave control in the DM's hands.
What this proposal allows us judges to do is to match up the treasure to the number of encounters proposed. If you give us an adventure proposal with 3 encounters totalling 500 xp for level 1 characters, we can check at submission time that you plan to give 5 packets worth of treasure. Then it doesn't matter if your adventure takes 1 month or 6 months, the time gold makes it so that the characters come out all right at the end.
It's a good question whether or not a DM should be allowed to hand out magic items in lieu of time gold. I imagine it would be fine in most cases, as long as no player came out of an adventure having earned less total treasure than the amount of time gold they're due. After all, the point of this is to help cover the players when the DM doesn't plan ahead; when they do plan ahead I think it's reasonable to leave control in the DM's hands.
Lord Sessadore
Explorer
In my opinion, time gold works perfectly for the kind of adventure you're talking about, Mal, where there is a big ceremony at the end during which most of the rewards are given. You just include the time gold with whatever other rewards you were going to give them. On the other hand, time gold could be rewarded "off screen" - stuff from after the adventure or before, or during, or whatever, doesn't matter - so PCs in adventures that don't have a built-in way to reward extra treasure at the end don't get the short end of the stick. Typically our adventures have been the "hired to do a job for an agreed-upon sum" kind, so adding extra treasure at the end doesn't necessarily work.
I think it's perfectly find to give a player a magic item instead of a chunk of his time gold. Going with what cov said, you have to keep in mind that you can only use a specific PC's share of time gold to 'pay' for an item for them. This is valuable in a living world, too - since characters will be changing DMs and parties fairly often, it's better to keep them close to the baseline, or at least not below it. Rewarding each PC evenly for half the XP, you achieve that baseline at least somewhat. The only thing is that you probably won't be giving out enough time gold per player to 'pay' for a magic item until level 3 or so.
I also think it's reasonable (and a good idea, even) to award time gold as you go along. Let's say you've been playing for 2 months, and the PCs find a stash of treasure. Or you invent a stash specifically for this, whatever works. You include (time gold/month)*2*(number of PCs) in the stash, post a note that this is their time gold for those 2 months, and voila! They don't have to wait til the end of the adventure to get that treasure. Just remember that you already did it and don't double reward them at the end
Lastly, if your adventure has 500 XP worth of fights, you should estimate that the entire adventure will reward 1000 XP with time XP. The general trend we've seen is that time XP roughly equals the other XP gained through conventional means. So, right there, we have a perfect example of why we need time gold - DMs are chronically underestimating how much real time their adventures will take, and so they give less treasure than the final XP in their adventure dictates they should.
I think it's perfectly find to give a player a magic item instead of a chunk of his time gold. Going with what cov said, you have to keep in mind that you can only use a specific PC's share of time gold to 'pay' for an item for them. This is valuable in a living world, too - since characters will be changing DMs and parties fairly often, it's better to keep them close to the baseline, or at least not below it. Rewarding each PC evenly for half the XP, you achieve that baseline at least somewhat. The only thing is that you probably won't be giving out enough time gold per player to 'pay' for a magic item until level 3 or so.
I also think it's reasonable (and a good idea, even) to award time gold as you go along. Let's say you've been playing for 2 months, and the PCs find a stash of treasure. Or you invent a stash specifically for this, whatever works. You include (time gold/month)*2*(number of PCs) in the stash, post a note that this is their time gold for those 2 months, and voila! They don't have to wait til the end of the adventure to get that treasure. Just remember that you already did it and don't double reward them at the end
Lastly, if your adventure has 500 XP worth of fights, you should estimate that the entire adventure will reward 1000 XP with time XP. The general trend we've seen is that time XP roughly equals the other XP gained through conventional means. So, right there, we have a perfect example of why we need time gold - DMs are chronically underestimating how much real time their adventures will take, and so they give less treasure than the final XP in their adventure dictates they should.
JoeNotCharles
First Post
Here's another possible situation: I want the adventure to feel especially rich, so I plan to give out standard treasure packets + time gold during the adventure. (Maybe even near the start: say it's a heist and instead of the standard "lots of adventuring with the reward at the end" setup I want to give out all the treasure at the beginning and then have the players work to get out with it alive.) I estimate it will take 4 months, so I give out that much time gold. It actually takes 8, so I'm short 4 months of time gold. At the end, I should give out 4 months of time gold rather than the full 8.
I think the DM should include in each treasure summary whether it includes time gold or not, and then the judge can check that it includes enough total treasure and then top up the rest with time gold.
The way this would work: the adventure proposal includes X amount of treasure "plus time gold will be included in the treasure packets", clearly separating which treasure is from packets and which is from time gold. While it's being handed out this is invisible to the players, to make it seem less artificial, but the DM and the judge both know. At the end, the judge works out how much time gold should be awarded, checks that what was handed out during the adventure matches the proposal (so that they know how much of what was already handed out is time gold) and then subtracts the amount already given from the total and awards it abstractly.
I think the DM should include in each treasure summary whether it includes time gold or not, and then the judge can check that it includes enough total treasure and then top up the rest with time gold.
The way this would work: the adventure proposal includes X amount of treasure "plus time gold will be included in the treasure packets", clearly separating which treasure is from packets and which is from time gold. While it's being handed out this is invisible to the players, to make it seem less artificial, but the DM and the judge both know. At the end, the judge works out how much time gold should be awarded, checks that what was handed out during the adventure matches the proposal (so that they know how much of what was already handed out is time gold) and then subtracts the amount already given from the total and awards it abstractly.
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Okay, but the time gold can't be explicitly per character, it has to be party loot otherwise you perpetuate the inequality; the guys who have both items and time gold are way ahead of those who have just time gold. If it's behind the scene money the PCs have earned between missions and keep for themselves, you increase the wealth of L4W but maintain the same big gap between those who have gotten lucky with item and those who haven't. I know a level 2 PCs who has two magic items and many who have none, for example. Making everybody richer doesn't change that.
Taking back my proposed adventure, if I end up doing all ten packets because I have given 1000XP, then I can do the following during my award ceremony :
4 Pcs get an item each, the remaining PC gets almost all of the non-items parcels which is worth a level 2 item.
If I were to just give 5 packet plus time gold, I'd want to do the exact same thing; give the guy without items the other player's share of time gold to even things out. So several characters would have little time gold; it would mostly be in the pocket of the luckless adventurer without item. If that's what we are talking about, fine.
I guess it would work better in my mind if we were awarding 'Time Parcels' for every 1/10 of a level of time XP and then have the total gains split fairly. In this case I want an award ceremony but most of the time it's just the PCs splitting loot fairly therefore it is vital that all the loot in all its form be on the table when we split.
Taking back my proposed adventure, if I end up doing all ten packets because I have given 1000XP, then I can do the following during my award ceremony :
4 Pcs get an item each, the remaining PC gets almost all of the non-items parcels which is worth a level 2 item.
If I were to just give 5 packet plus time gold, I'd want to do the exact same thing; give the guy without items the other player's share of time gold to even things out. So several characters would have little time gold; it would mostly be in the pocket of the luckless adventurer without item. If that's what we are talking about, fine.
I guess it would work better in my mind if we were awarding 'Time Parcels' for every 1/10 of a level of time XP and then have the total gains split fairly. In this case I want an award ceremony but most of the time it's just the PCs splitting loot fairly therefore it is vital that all the loot in all its form be on the table when we split.
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JoeNotCharles
First Post
Time gold is not meant to iron out inequality between characters. We need another mechanism to do that.
Time gold is meant to fix the problem that characters who are given the optimal amount of loot according to treasure packets are still falling behind what they should have when they reach their next level, because time XP makes them reach it earlier.
Trying to make "time gold" address both problems by splitting it up differently per character just makes it confusing. If you want an approach which counts up how much each player SHOULD have and awards them more or less based on how far behind they are, that should be an entirely different proposal which isn't called "time gold". (And I assume we would want to adopt one or the other and not mix them.)
Time gold's attraction is its simplicity: when you get time XP, you also get this much gold. The only wrinkle is that (IMHO) a DM should be able to declare that they've already given out some of that time gold during the adventure, if they want to keep all the rewards IC.
Time gold is meant to fix the problem that characters who are given the optimal amount of loot according to treasure packets are still falling behind what they should have when they reach their next level, because time XP makes them reach it earlier.
Trying to make "time gold" address both problems by splitting it up differently per character just makes it confusing. If you want an approach which counts up how much each player SHOULD have and awards them more or less based on how far behind they are, that should be an entirely different proposal which isn't called "time gold". (And I assume we would want to adopt one or the other and not mix them.)
Time gold's attraction is its simplicity: when you get time XP, you also get this much gold. The only wrinkle is that (IMHO) a DM should be able to declare that they've already given out some of that time gold during the adventure, if they want to keep all the rewards IC.
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