Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder First Print Run Sold Out

[Mistwell]

The competitors can be in other sectors, such as video games, books, etc ...

How would knowing the exact precise run as opposed to the approximate run help a video game company in this context?

The competitive advantage is in maintaining a perception of "mystique" in the eyes of consumers and general public. Things aren't quite as interesting if they're perceived to be "mundane" or "ordinary". In a sector highly dependent on people's disposable income, one has to attract attention in some form or another. Being mundane or ordinary, may not do the trick.

So saying "from 10 to 50" does not decrease mystique, but saying "35" does? And you think this mystique over the print run that WAS ALREADY SOLD, was a factor in it selling, or in selling future copies? Really? How so.

Other businesses where this has been commonly done in the past, is in marketing rock stars, movie stars, etc ... and celebrities in general as being "larger than life". It doesn't always work out that way in the end, but that doesn't stop marketers from doing it in their attempts to gain an edge over other competitors.

Again, how does withholding this data point help them get an edge in this case?

The competition may very well be for people's attentions and eyes, in a world where many people's attention spans are very short. Mundane and ordinary may very well be drowned out by the "noise" of everything else being advertised as "larger than life".

I'm not buying the mystique argument on this one. It might apply to some things, but I do not see how it applies to this thing we are discussing. Can you point to someone who bought the book or will buy the book because there is a vague mystery on a message board about what the exact print run was?

 

[jephlewis]

Paizo, congratulations on selling out your first print run! I have yet to regret buying anything made by you guys, and I intend to use some parts of your gamemastery/pathfinder modules in my main 4E campaign. Also, PF Campaign setting frickin' rocks! It's beautiful in so many ways.

I would congratulate Paizo and all the fine people who work there, but unfortunately, your fans has been telling me for over a year that selling out the initial print run means nothing. It's simply a sign that the print run was purposedly made small enough to sell out, in order to generate hype on the internet.

I really don't think it's "paizo's fans", but more like "SOME of paizo's fans who also have a specific way of looking at 4E", which is not quite the same thing. I think it would be unreasonable to paint all "pro paizo" people as "anti 4E".

Congrats, folks!
I thought it was a big deal and awesome when WotC sold out of 4e, and I think it's a big deal and awesome that Paizo has sold out of Pathfinder!

Any time sales exceed expectations, it's great news for publishers and for the hobby!
-O

Totally agree. I'm currently DMing 4E, but i've pre ordered more than one copy of PFRPG through amazon. Paizo makes some of the best gaming material EVAR in my opinion, and I will continue to buy it.

Congrats Paizo!...You know, you guys should maybe start up a couple of magazines to go along with the game system. Maybe one for gaming articles and another for small, professional, and fan-written adventures. (I've heard you guys may have some experience with that.)

El Mahdi brings up a good point; What does Paizo think about a magazine made from fan submitted content, like what the old dragon and dungeon magazines were? Is this feasible?

 

[Mistwell]

With all due respect, now you're not only claiming that you're somehow entitled to the information,

Wait. Lets be very clear. No, I am not making any such claim. I am not entitled to the information, and I have never said or implied in any way that I think I am entitled to it. I said I would like to know it, as would some others. That's it.

I understand you wrote "with all due respect", but I don't understand how you could follow it with that entitlement claim. That sure looked like the throwing of a bomb. Do you have anything to support your claim that I stated some entitlement?

but you also want somebody to sit you down and explain market economics, positioning strategy, the law of supply and demand, and a step-by-step explanation of how production, solicitation and distribution works in the game industry. (Which are all of the subjects that you would need to understand for your question to be answered.)

Nope. I understand all of that just fine. I own a business that is larger than Paizo. I think it's kinda demeaning to imply that people here don't have enough knowledge to comprehend the ramifications of a a hypothetical scenario where knowing the firm number as opposed to the soft number for a particular print run of an RPG book would help or hurt someone.

You tell me a scenario where announcing this data point could hurt them or help someone else. Give it a try. If all of those concepts are an important factor, it should be relatively simply for you to take a single one and offer an example.

I suspect you won't though, because knowing this data does not realistically actually involve any of that. Knowing a firm number will not influence supply and demand for example. People just assume it must be important to some sort of economics concept and out of tradition they never announce a number. But for particular events, usually there is no harm at all in announcing a number. Which is why, eventually, many companies started to announce numbers through large distribution chains. And low and behold, nothing bad ever happened, because there never was even a hypothetical scenario where knowing the precise number could cause a harm to the company or give a competitor an advantage.

Are you beginning to see why this might be a tad unreasonable on your part?

Not in the least. Are you beginning to see how positing vague economics concepts is not helpful for this context?

 

[Mistwell]

Isn't the question a bit like asking someone what their yearly salary is?

It may be related to the notion in this society, where it is taboo to ask somebody what their income is.

Fair enough. Which is why I'd never ask what the profit margin is on the book, or how much revenue they gathered from it, or the cost to make the book.

Knowing the number of the print run (as opposed to a range) doesn't seem related to to that taboo, does it? If it does, why?

 

[Twowolves]

I'm still waiting for anyone to offer an actual good reason for not announcing a firm number for the print run. So far, most answers seem to be "because it's not traditionally done". How is that a good answer?

At first you wanted an answer, now you want a "good" answer? What if no answer meets your arbitrary definition of "good"?

And again, why does asking this question bother people, and why would it take away from enjoyment of the news itself?

I'd guess that it's because you posted it in what is supposed to be a congratulatory thread, and in a tone easily interpreted as hostile. If it bothers you so much, fork the thread and let the Paizo/Pathfinder fans be happy about the good news in this one.

 

[Mistwell]

A-frakkin-men. As if the sense of entitlement wasn't bad enough, the irresistable compulsion to display their ignorance about companies in general, and RPG companies in particular, continues to baffle me. I keep envisioning that for the "entitled gamer", if reality bit them in the rear by providing an actual meeting with a RPG owner/officer/executive it'd go something like this:

Company CEO: "Well, I've been running this successful company for 5 years, I've got a MBA, and a degree in economics, so I think I know what I'm talking about. What you're asking for really isn't any of your business."

Entitled Gamer: "Oh yeah, man? Don't give me that corporate double-speak!! I've GMed Shadowrun! So I know all about the business world! What're you trying to hide!?!?"

That nonsense aside, congratulations to the Paizo team! (As I anxiously count the minutes until my pre-order arrives...)

I'm going to ask politely to a) backup your claim that anyone here feels a sense of entitlement to knowing the number, and b) that people here are ignorant about corporations. Either that, or I'd ask you to apologize for your rather insulting generalization.

I do not feel entitled to the information, and I have plenty of knowledge of corporations and the industry. And, though I am trying to not speak for anyone else, I strongly suspect the other folks who want to know the number also do not feel entitled to the information and also have sufficient knowledge to understand the issue.

Frankly, I am getting sick of the accusation about entitlement. It's a strawman, and a rude one at that.

 

[Obryn]

I kinda think it's simple.

What does Paizo or WotC gain from releasing hard sales figures? Nothing that I can see. Even if they release hard numbers in an effort to satisfy their critics, numbers like that can and will be twisted all to hell. For reference, read any thread about how WotC and 4e are in imminent danger of collapse and check the "evidence."

What would the messageboard denizens gain from release of hard numbers?

Ammunition for further EditionWarz! Numbers to further enhance baseless speculation! Huzzah!


...I think, all things considered, I would rather WotC and Paizo keep a lid on it.

-O

 

[Mistwell]

I kinda think it's simple.

What does Paizo or WotC gain from releasing hard sales figures?

Nobody is asking for sales figures, just print run.

They gain customer service. Some of their fans would like to know the number. That's it. Without a harm, pleasing their fans seems like a good thing, doesn't it?

What would the messageboard denizens gain from release of hard numbers?

All sorts of things. I'd like to know what larger initial print runs look like. I'd like some vague knowledge about consumer interest in the product. I'd like an example of a company that is open about their numbers to use as contrast to those companies that are closed about those numbers. All sorts of cool stuff comes from knowing the number.

Ammunition for further EditionWarz! Numbers to further enhance baseless speculation! Huzzah!

I don't see how this would further that.

 

[ggroy]

How would knowing the exact precise run as opposed to the approximate run help a video game company in this context?

It gives an idea how big the relative sizes of the different businesses are, in related sectors. Some executives like the idea that they're building an "empire", and want to know how well they're doing relative to others in their sector and related sectors.

So saying "from 10 to 50" does not decrease mystique, but saying "35" does? And you think this mystique over the print run that WAS ALREADY SOLD, was a factor in it selling, or in selling future copies?

It could be any of these. Nobody knows for sure which copies were sold and where, and for what reasons. It could in principle get the fence sitters to finally jump onto the bandwagon.

But surely the "1st printing sold out" thing does provide good headlines, and a perception that things are doing well.

Again, how does withholding this data point help them get an edge in this case?

If one does not know how well a competitor is doing, the uncertainty can influence how things are done. It's a bit like a poker game with everyone trying to bluff one another.

If one does know exactly how much $$$ a competitor is making, one can plan accordingly.

I'm not buying the mystique argument on this one. It might apply to some things, but I do not see how it applies to this thing we are discussing. Can you point to someone who bought the book or will buy the book because there is a vague mystery on a message board about what the exact print run was?

Not specifically that. The mystique is more general than just the number of copies sold.

When I was a kid, I first got a D&D box set on impulse from seeing it at a department store. I thought the cover looked cool and larger than life. If it was just a boring looking white box, I probably would have just passed it by.

 

[ggroy]

Fair enough. Which is why I'd never ask what the profit margin is on the book, or how much revenue they gathered from it, or the cost to make the book.

Knowing the number of the print run (as opposed to a range) doesn't seem related to to that taboo, does it? If it does, why?

With an exact print run number, once can deduce how much $$$$ is being made. Or at least it can give a precise upper limit for the amount of $$$$ being made.