A Question for the 25 and under crowd - What have you read?

[Hussar]

It did get lost in all the above, but, I did specifically talk about A Princess of Mars. Not all ERB stories, which I honestly haven't read and cannot comment on. I repeatedly stated that I was talking about APOM. I forced myself to choke down that one book and gave up after that. That there may be white Martians in later books doesn't really matter as that's not what I'm talking about.

And no, I was not saying that we should never, ever talk about these books. Please stop putting words in my mouth. What I said was we should not base the game on works which are pretty obviously racist and misogynisitic. It's not like we don't have a choice here.

While Tolkien may not be the epitome of cultural sensitivity, it's light years ahead of many pulp works, for example. Lloyd Alexander also comes to mind. Never mind the rather large amount of more modern works like Tad Williams or whatnot.

I find the tradition argument quite frankly distasteful. "A lot of works back then were racists, so that makes it okay!" is how that argument boils down. It doesn't matter that Shakespeare was a bigot. I don't base my game on A Merchant of Venice. Just because people were bigoted back then doesn't make it okay. At least not to me.

Ariosto brings up the point that there are works back then that aren't so blatantly bad. Fair enough. Let's use those. However, white washing or appologizing for these works does no one any good.

 

[mmadsen]

I did specifically talk about A Princess of Mars. Not all ERB stories, which I honestly haven't read and cannot comment on. [...] What I said was we should not base the game on works which are pretty obviously racist and misogynisitic.

So, we should not base D&D -- a game about killing quasi-people from other tribes and stealing their stuff -- on A Princess of Mars, because the book could be construed as racist and misogynistic by someone who wants to see it as racist and misogynistic?

 

[Woas]

I think we should base D&D off the book [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Gas-We-Pass-Story-Science/dp/1929132158/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249566308&sr=8-1"]The Gas We Pass: The Story of Farts[/ame]

 

[Storm Raven]

It did get lost in all the above, but, I did specifically talk about A Princess of Mars. Not all ERB stories, which I honestly haven't read and cannot comment on. I repeatedly stated that I was talking about APOM. I forced myself to choke down that one book and gave up after that. That there may be white Martians in later books doesn't really matter as that's not what I'm talking about.

And your claims don't even hold up when you look at A Princess of Mars on its own. The "green martians as communists" is difficult to reconcile with the portrayal of the green martians just from that book (since all of the things I pointed out that run against that interpretation are present in Princess). The "John Carter shows the martians how to do things right" also falls flat when looked at solely on the basis of what is in Princess, since he does nothing of the kind, but rather falls into line with martian society, adapting his ways to theirs. Really, the only way you can find racism in the ERB books is if you bring it there.

 

[Hussar]

Really SR?

The lone white guy comes to Mars, becomes super powered, defeats the strongest warriors, kicks everyone's ass to become top of the heap. And you see absolutely no racist undertones there whatsoever?

Look, I understand you like the book. Fair enough. But I'm really having difficulty believing that in reading the book, you see absolutely no racism in it. Hell, in the very first chapter we get:

Since we had entered the territory we had not seen a hostile Indian, and we had, therefore, become careless in the extreme, and were wont to ridicule the stories we had heard of the great numbers of these vicious marauders that were supposed to haunt the trails, taking their toll in lives and torture of every white party which fell into their merciless clutches.

...

I was positive now that the trailers were Apaches and that they wished to capture Powell alive for the fiendish pleasure of the torture, so I urged my horse onward at a most dangerous pace, hoping against hope that I would catch up with the red rascals before they attacked him.

I mean, this isn't exactly culturally sensitive is it?

 

[billd91]

I find the tradition argument quite frankly distasteful. "A lot of works back then were racists, so that makes it okay!" is how that argument boils down. It doesn't matter that Shakespeare was a bigot. I don't base my game on A Merchant of Venice. Just because people were bigoted back then doesn't make it okay. At least not to me.

It doesn't make it OK, but it shouldn't necessarily negate the value of the rest of the work. That's a nitpicker's excuse for dismissing books (or even banning them) without having to really interact with them.

The authors are who they are (or were who they were) just as we are who we are, complete with prejudices, misconceptions, and foibles. Some of these are realy egregious, sometimes just a sign of their times whether more or less enlightened than today.

 

[billd91]

I mean, this isn't exactly culturally sensitive is it?

And... it has nothing to do with what he does on Barsoom either. Or why it's the red people whose ways he ends up most adopting. Kind of an ironic development for someone so racist toward the Native Americans, isn't it?

 

[Storm Raven]

Really SR?

Really. In point of fact, I do find some racism in the reading process you describe, the real question is which end of the exchenge the racism is on. Here's a hint: I don't think it was on ERB's end.

The lone white guy comes to Mars, becomes super powered, defeats the strongest warriors, kicks everyone's ass to become top of the heap. And you see absolutely no racist undertones there whatsoever?

The "lone white guy" comes to Mars and is stronger because he's an athlete from a heavier gravity planet. He's also a very good swordsman because he's the best swordsman from Earth. He's not better than the martians because he's a white guy, he's better than most humans to begin with. He also doesn't become top of the heap. He rises in status through the book, but ends up as still an underling. I think, based upon your misconceptions, that you didn't actually read the book, but rather skimmed through it with some preconceived notions of what was in the book.

Look, I understand you like the book. Fair enough. But I'm really having difficulty believing that in reading the book, you see absolutely no racism in it. Hell, in the very first chapter we get:

Yes, and after the first chapter we have no action on Earth at all. So how the Indians are described is entirely beside the point. Who on Mars stands in for the Indians? The cruel and humorless but noble and loyal green martians? The incredibly civilized and technologically advanced red martians? As I said before, the only racism in the book is what you bring with you.

 

[billd91]

The "lone white guy" comes to Mars and is stronger because he's an athlete from a heavier gravity planet. He's also a very good swordsman because he's the best swordsman from Earth. He's not better than the martians because he's a white guy, he's better than most humans to begin with. He doesn't become top of the heap. He rises in status through the book, but ends up as still and underling. I think, based upon your misconceptions, that you didn't actually read the book, but rather skimmed through it with some preconceived notions of what was in the book.

He may be stronger because he comes from a heavier gravity, but I think a lot of his development as a swordsman and being such aa super-warrior stem more from his becoming an embodiment of martial prowess as he leaves behind his terrestrial form in the cave.

 

[Ariosto]

I mean, this isn't exactly culturally sensitive is it?

To what culture? To that of Arizona in March of 1866?

Carter's thoughts at that time and in that place hardly mark him as a hysteric. The Apaches were indeed vicious marauders, as were their enemies "white" and "red" alike. Torture was common enough practice. By the spring of 1863, Apaches had murdered several small parties of prospectors and miners. Three years later, I think their war-making against the Gringos (who were allied with the Apaches' traditional enemies the Pimas and Maricopas) was a pretty reasonable concern.