Dealing with an "oldschool" DM

[aboyd]

I guess I must be "entitled" to expect a game with rules to... you know, have those rules followed.

When you word it all sardonic like that, your text seems to imply that playing by the book is a natural and obvious conclusion, and it's utterly witless to think otherwise. It's not. In fact, some of the "rules" that you demand be followed are so frequently discarded by DMs that discarding them routinely makes it into printed suggestions. For example, just off the top of my head, the Lost City of Barakus module suggests half XP, and even that is often too much. Given time, I suspect I can find official text suggesting that XP awards can be executed in many various ways, at the DMs discretion.

Also, when you word it all sardonic like that, it really gives me the impression that you're quite unhappy. Why are you playing?

I utterly despise the "DM is God" mentality, and wish it was thrown away.

And yet you're playing in a "DM is God" game with a bunch of players who, according to your own account, are fine with the game. Why are you doing that to yourself? Go find some like-minded people to play with.

He's not running a low magic game, but he doesn't change the published adventures or tailor the treasure or anything of that sort, so we sometimes don't end up with any usable treasure because we don't use what the adventure just drops in.

Uh, I'm of the mind that not using the adventure's treasure is tailoring the treasure, is changing the published adventure, and does make it a low-magic game. Perhaps the DM hasn't used those words -- "THIS IS A LOW-MAGIC GAME" -- but you're well aware of the game environment you're in, so you're either on board or not.

Also, the only way you would know what treasure should be awarded would be if you've seen what treasure is supposed to be awarded. Oops. As a DM, if I encountered such a player, I would deliberately hack the treasure in order to disabuse the player of any notion that he could know or dictate this stuff. Look, since maybe your DM hasn't communicated it clearly to you, I'll do it for him. Here is his comment: I don't follow modules to the letter, and if you need that, you will be repeatedly disappointed.

OK? Now you can make an educated decision about what to do with your free time.

 

[Mark]

Also, the only way you would know what treasure should be awarded would be if you've seen what treasure is supposed to be awarded. Oops. As a DM, if I encountered such a player, I would deliberately hack the treasure in order to disabuse the player of any notion that he could know or dictate this stuff.

Introduction of a cursed item that looks otherwise like something that was included in the original treasure sometimes curbs that inclination.

 

[Kez Darksun]

Or, you know, he could be going by the treasure a character of that level is assumed to have from the DMG.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Or, you know, he could be going by the treasure a character of that level is assumed to have from the DMG.

That still feels alien to me.

Again, perhaps I'm old school, but feeling that you're entitled to a certain amount of treasure and xps does feel like player entitlement to me.

You said it yourself - the treasure of a character of that level is in the DMG. Not the PHB. It's the DM's decision at the end of the day, not the player's.

 

[Kez Darksun]

That still feels alien to me.

Again, perhaps I'm old school, but feeling that you're entitled to a certain amount of treasure and xps does feel like player entitlement to me.

You said it yourself - the treasure of a character of that level is in the DMG. Not the PHB. It's the DM's decision at the end of the day, not the player's.

The expected treasure for higher level character creation is also in the character builder. So unless that is ruled out for PC use as well, its fair knowledge for players. And if I'm playing in a by the book game I certainly don't feel it is any way, shape or form entitlement if monster & encounter design have been built around expecting PC's to have a certain amount of equipment to make it as balanced as possible.

Just to note, although I am advocating a more player oriented view, in practice I'm not going to be sitting there counting every copper piece to make sure the group is at the exact wealth by level point for a particular level.

 

[Storm Raven]

You said it yourself - the treasure of a character of that level is in the DMG. Not the PHB. It's the DM's decision at the end of the day, not the player's.

I have never understood the idea that the DMG is somehow off-limits to the players.

 

[RodneyThompson]

Disclaimer: Only read the OP, not ensuing discussion.

I'm a bit torn on the kind of recommendation I'd make.

One part of me says that, well, it's the DM's game. You signed up for it, he's putting in the hard work to prepare it, sometimes you just have to roll with a certain DM's playing style. Not every DM is going to run the same kind of game; one of my good buddies back home runs 4E very fast-and-loose, with a lot more emphasis on creating an interesting story than the game side of it. He's pretty much ditched the economy, encounter design, adventure design, etc. Strangely enough (teasing of course) the game has not burst into flames under his ministrations. I'm one of those guys that believes treasure distribution is firmly in the hands of the DM. That said, I also know the game expects a certain amount of treasure to keep the players going, but I don't mind being a bit under-geared as long as it isn't crippingly so. If you have a +2 weapon but you're supposed to have a +3 at that level...eh. It's not worth raising a fuss over.

On the other hand, you're clearly not happy. There are certain core assumptions built into the game that are being thrown out the window. We play these games to be happy and have fun, not out of some sort of obligation, so you need to make sure you're having fun.

If the other players in the game are having fun, it's likely that maybe the whole group just wants a bit more loose-with-the-rules-focus-on-the-story style, and you need to adjust your expectations, find another group, or just otherwise make the best of it. If you think your DM is just misinterpreting rules, you might volunteer to run a game and invite him to join; maybe seeing you run the game a certain way will illuminate him (I'm thinking specifically about the encounter design stuff; if you can run a good encounter that's pretty tough and used the standard encounter design rules, maybe he'll realize that he might need to brush up on his monster-running skills).

I think the best thing to remember is that you should be polite about it, no matter what direction you go in. Your first post seems a big aggressive, and there's nothing wrong with being "old school" on some issues. A lot of us at WotC have one thing or another we do "old school" style; for example, I still do random treasure (no wish lists!). Coming from 1st Edition, he's likely got a lot to offer you in the way of creating an interesting campaign, so it might be worth your time to just relax, go with the flow, and see how things shape up. If you're still not happy, find another game--and heck, once you get in another game, you might still want to stay in this one to see how it develops!

 

[Oryan77]

I have never understood the idea that the DMG is somehow off-limits to the players.

Well one of my observations is that when players know the text from books like the DMG, it can cause a whole lot of unhappy players. Ever noticed how players new to the game that don't know certain bits of information like "character wealth per level" seem to argue a lot less with the DMs? They seem to have a blast playing with whatever guy is DMing at the moment. They are the ones having fun while other players are miserable and are going online and bashing their DM cause they didn't get their pretties fast enough.

As the OP said, the other players are new to D&D, yet they aren't complaining and I guarantee they are having fun playing with this DM. Too much knowledge in the wrong players hands can cause a lot of grief to both that player and their DM. Not enough people these days are "easy going" gamers

 

[aboyd]

I suspect I can find official text suggesting that XP awards can be executed in many various ways, at the DMs discretion.

OK, so your thread is about a 4th edition game run by a guy who last ran a 1st edition game, and I'm going to mix it up even further by interjecting my 3rd edition book text, but here goes.

I found the text I was thinking of. The 3.5 edition DMG contains this:

An orc warband that attacks the PCs by flying over them on primitive hang gliders and dropping large rocks is not the same encounter as one in which the orcs just charge in with spears. Sometimes, the circumstances give the characters’ opponents a distinct advantage. Other times, the PCs have an advantage. Adjust the XP award and the EL depending on how greatly circumstances change the encounter’s difficulty.

Now, I don't know what has happened with the 4th edition books. Perhaps such text has been excised. But what I do know is that similar text appears in the 2nd edition DMG I have, and I suspect it's in the 1st edition too. If so, then this is how your DM was trained. He is going by the book when he modifies XP awards. When he grumbles that he didn't play a monster effectively and thus the XP award is smaller than usual ("because they were lamer than usual"), well, that seems to be following the exact advice given in our earlier edition books.

Again, perhaps such a thing is completely foreign to the 4th edition books, but you yourself have said he's a 1st edition guy. Maybe it's time to consider that your 4th edition DM was trained by 1st edition, and thus the game will have a few throwbacks. Not only that, but these "throwbacks" are not even wrong -- they are encouraged methods of correct play, at least in the books I own. That makes your DM less of a villain and more of a DM with an old soul, if anything. If that doesn't work for you, no harm no foul, but no need to keep at it. Go find a DM that doesn't have any baggage from earlier editions (again, assuming that 4th edition has completely removed any DM option to adjust awards).

 

[FireLance]

Well one of my observations is that when players know the text from books like the DMG, it can cause a whole lot of unhappy players. Ever noticed how players new to the game that don't know certain bits of information like "character wealth per level" seem to argue a lot less with the DMs? They seem to have a blast playing with whatever guy is DMing at the moment. They are the ones having fun while other players are miserable and are going online and bashing their DM cause they didn't get their pretties fast enough.

As the OP said, the other players are new to D&D, yet they aren't complaining and I guarantee they are having fun playing with this DM. Too much knowledge in the wrong players hands can cause a lot of grief to both that player and their DM. Not enough people these days are "easy going" gamers

Even so, I would rather my players know the standard guidelines and assumptions (not that I have much choice, since most of the people I game with DM as well), and on my part, I would be upfront about the fact that I will not be following them, should I decide to not do so. In my view, the problem is not too much knowledge, but different assumptions about the basic expections of the game, perhaps caused by insufficient communication.

I suppose the fact that there is an assumed "standard" in the more recent versions of D&D makes it more important for the DM to communicate clearly when he decides not to follow it, as opposed to more "old school" games were there was no such standard.